Catch and Release???

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by troutpounder, May 5, 2012.

  1. CurtisS Member

    Posts: 123
    Amanda Park, WA
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    I think hatcheries are an important part of a management, not the ideal situation as you said, but important. The point i'm trying to make is when it comes to steelhead, not stocker trout in lakes, its not even an issue of them co existing because the hatchery fish, by design, aren't suppose to exist freely in the system! the perfect hatchery fish from a management perspective leaves the pens and goes sea ward without competing with native sticks for food, then returns to the river directly to the hatchery without spawning with wild fish,obviously this doesn't happen, but thats what they are designed to do. To say that you support killing wild fish as much as hatchery fish when they are in the same abundance is ludicrous. Wild fish have a purpose, that is to spawn, and produce offspring. Hatchery fish don't have this purpose, they are a man made institution specifically put in the river to take pressure off wild fish, to be harvested.

    You call us idealists, but you think that hatchery fish are the equal of wild fish, that they are somehow the same because hatchery fish originate from wild fish. That is idealistic. Here in the real world, man's attempt to create a duplicate race of wild fish results in an animal that is less hardy, has lower survival rates in the wild, and is significantly less diverse genetically. These fish should be harvested, as is their purpose, before they are allowed to weaken the genetic stability of the wild stock they share the river with.
  2. Drifter Active Member

    Posts: 1,627
    Ratings: +635 / 2
    Some 15 years ago on the Kalama river in Washington they did a genetic survey of the returning steelhead when they had the blockage for fish and could seperate the "wild" - "native" fish from the stocked steelhead. They took all surrounding genetic genes from most hatcheries along the coast to compare with returning steel so if wonderers came to the river they could tell! this article I think was in salmon trout steelheader mag. they found one only one native fish that did not have hatchery genes in it's DNA I ask so what did this fish spawn with. I have tried to find the article archives before and couldn't but why is this not mentioned ever in this big debate of hatchery versus wild-native fish. wait you all changed the wording to "wild" and never use the word native. wild to me means "hatchery high-bred" formed by hatcheries with hatchery strain "DNA" so now you all say wild "hatchery dna" fish will do better without hatchery planting so all fish will spawn naturally and be better genetically even though dna studies proved most if not all are hatchery DNA, I don't get it- hatcheries mean more fish to me to fish for nothing more nothing less. Oregon has had rivers "wild only" for over a decade and they don't have returns of 10,000 fish and never will, they just turned into select fisheries for catch and release witch takes out 90 percent of the fishing population that pays for the studies and allows for the money to do other things in all the northwest. if you don't want hatchery fish close all your rivers and quit fishing until the population of "wild" fish is enough to fish over like a return of 7000 fish or so. but you might not be able to fish at all for the next 20 or 50 years or so. I hate these debates about wild-hatchery steelhead.

    On Oregons sandy river they quit stocking hatchery skamania run steel and that run was one of the best on the whole west coast if you ask me. now they have a season to try and wipe out the summer runs that made they're own "wild-run" these fish fight harder and stay in the river longer then any winter fish. there is no comparison to the wild winter fish and the skamania fish for fight and table fair yet ODFW quit stocking them. and are trying to wipe them out. the winter brood-stock program is even being attacked when it has proven effective to return multible year class fish in the 20 pound and over range. but that's not good enough for the native fish gurus so they sued. I support hatchery fish and brood stock programs and always will, I have released hundreds of hatchery fish over the years in hopes some little boy or girl catches them up river. because I can and will " IT'S MY CHOICE" everyone else has they're own choice have at it.
  3. Salmo_g Active Member

    Posts: 7,473
    Your City ,State
    Ratings: +1,615 / 0
    Mark,

    I don't know what appeared in the STS magazine about the Kalama steelhead, but your version is all wrong. I thought I had links to the Kalama River steelhead studies here, but I don't. I'll email copies to you if you want to read the science behind the Kalama steelhead.

    Sg
  4. BRsnow Member

    Posts: 114
    Denver, CO
    Ratings: +14 / 0
    Probably depends on the source whether or not his science was wrong. These days science is paid for, no longer a decent source of proof. You really need to read all that is out there and try to piece it together between the line. BR
  5. Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    Posts: 2,288
    bellingham wa
    Ratings: +541 / 0
    SG,

    If the science doesn't jive with your position, insult the science and the scientist. It's easy. I mean clearly all the monied interests want to assure that the status quo goes away.

    Then project your faith based decision making process on to others.

    This whole thread would be really funny....... if it weren't so sad.

    Go Sox,
    cds
  6. BRsnow Member

    Posts: 114
    Denver, CO
    Ratings: +14 / 0
    Actually I did not choose a side, am just smart enough to realize science in no longer based on the quest for truth and discovery. It is for sale, so it makes trying to figure out what is really going on difficult. BR
  7. Drifter Active Member

    Posts: 1,627
    Ratings: +635 / 2
    please do - and hopefully it is the DNA study I read probably 15 years ago or even longer, thanks for the research ahead of time.
  8. Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    Posts: 2,288
    bellingham wa
    Ratings: +541 / 0
    I've known and spoken to enough bio's to know that in this debate your fear of bought science is misplaced.

    Go Sox,
    cds
  9. Richard Olmstead BigDog

    Posts: 2,485
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +786 / 0
    [quote="BRsnow, post: 736448, member: 20582
    am just smart enough to realize science in no longer based on the quest for truth and discovery. It is for sale, so it makes trying to figure out what is really going on difficult. BR[/quote]

    I would say from reading this comment, that you know very little about how scientific research is funded and conducted in this country.

    D
  10. BRsnow Member

    Posts: 114
    Denver, CO
    Ratings: +14 / 0
    I would say from reading this comment, that you know very little about how scientific research is funded and conducted in this country.

    D[/quote]

    Actually I worked previously on gaining funding for research, have moved on in my career, but I am pretty familiar with it. BR
  11. Irafly Active Member

    Posts: 3,610
    Everett, Washington, USA.
    Ratings: +1,033 / 1
    I'm so glad I got in on this one first.
  12. cuponoodle breakfast gritty

    Posts: 1,651
    Arlington
    Ratings: +305 / 0
    Skamania summers reproduce at a better rate than winter hatchery fish. If the Kalama study is as you say, and if it was done on summer fish, then keep in mind that winter runs would likely have a much different outcome. Maybe the bios here can provide more details.
    The hatchery winter steelhead planted in most PS rivers have a poor record of reproducing in the wild. And if they're spawning with a wild fish, then that wild fish's efforts are likely wasted.
  13. Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

    Posts: 1,786
    Bellingham Wa.
    Ratings: +316 / 1
    Reduced recruitment performance in natural
    populations of anadromous salmonids associated
    with hatchery-reared fish
    M.W. Chilcote, K.W. Goodson, and M.R. Falcy
    Abstract:
    We found a negative relationship between the reproductive performance in natural, anadromous populations of
    steelhead trout (


    Oncorhynchus mykiss), coho salmon (O. kisutch), and Chinook salmon (O. tshawytscha), and the proportion
    of hatchery fish in the spawning population. We used intrinsic productivity as estimated from fitting a variety of recruitment
    models to abundance data for each population as our indicator of reproductive performance. The magnitude of
    this negative relationship is such that we predict the recruitment performance for a population composed entirely of hatchery
    fish would be 0.128 of that for a population composed entirely of wild fish. The effect of hatchery fish on reproductive
    performance was the same among all three species. Further, the impact of hatchery fish from ‘‘wild type’’ hatchery broodstocks
    was no less adverse than hatchery fish from traditional, domesticated broodstocks. We also found no support for the
    hypothesis that a population’s reproductive performance was affected by the length of exposure to hatchery fish. In most
    cases, measures that minimize the interactions between wild and hatchery fish will be the best long-term conservation
    strategy for wild populations.
    Re´sume´ :

    Attached Files:

  14. Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

    Posts: 1,786
    Bellingham Wa.
    Ratings: +316 / 1
  15. Chris Bellows The Thought Train

    Posts: 1,627
    The Salt
    Ratings: +753 / 0
    they may have quit stocking skamania stock but they still stock summer run steelhead in the sandy (approx. 80,000 smolts a year). i am a bit confused though. are you saying the sandy is open for wild fish retention to kill the skamania progeny? the regs for wild fish are catch and release so i think i am misunderstanding you.
  16. Drifter Active Member

    Posts: 1,627
    Ratings: +635 / 2
  17. Chris Bellows The Thought Train

    Posts: 1,627
    The Salt
    Ratings: +753 / 0
    i wanted to mention that the agencies doing most of these studies are the same agencies that run and promote hatcheries. the bias within the fish and wildlife agencies is not pro-wild fish.
  18. Drifter Active Member

    Posts: 1,627
    Ratings: +635 / 2
    As far as the regs go you can keep wild fish in the salmon river system- trib to the sandy where the summers go to spawn during a certain time frame, ends in aug. when the fish would just be getting their. I thought they quit stocking them long ago because of interbreeding with winter fish or competing for habitat. HMMMM I will have to see if that is true about the planting of summers still. I don't fish for steel anymore so haven't cared to keep up with everything like I used too.
  19. Matthew LeBret Active Member

    Posts: 734
    clarkston, wa
    Ratings: +76 / 0
    Some fish taste good so I eat them
  20. freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Posts: 3,967
    Edgewood, WA
    Ratings: +706 / 1
    Curtis,
    What I'm saying is that if their were ample populations of wild fish in a given system and the biologists determined that harvesting a certain percentage of them would not harm the populations ability to sustain itself, then yes. What would make the harvest of naturally spawning steelhead any different than say elk, ducks, etc.?