Thanks for the tip on trying scuds, Topstoy. I was informed that the lake I was fishing has chara weed, which is supposed to be scud habitat. Usually I have luck there slow trolling or stripping a bugger or leech close to the bottom. I found some "quick release indicators" that I had used with globugs. Egg shaped. Hollow peg. Can set 'em light enough to release on the rod tip. With a bobber stop up high on the leader, and the leader going straight thru them (without a loop pegged), they also work as slip indicators. If those don't work, I'll make some better ones.