Cutthroat/steelhead hybrid

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by D3Smartie, Sep 22, 2008.

  1. salt dog card shark

    Posts: 2,306
    Edmonds WA / Mazama
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    Thanks for the first hand info geljockey, good stuff. Easy to get hooked on these amazing little fish; there's just something about them that is very admirable.
  2. D3Smartie Active Member

    Posts: 1,987
    WA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    iagree Thank you very much Bruce.
  3. D3Smartie Active Member

    Posts: 1,987
    WA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    On a related note, I caught him again today. He wouldnt eat the same fly as i got him on before, but i switched colors and he ate that one right up! This is by far one of the strongest trout I have ever encountered in the salt. He almost took me to my backing which has never happened to me by a SRC and only very rarely by a silver.
    A magnificent fish for sure!
    I didnt check for the teeth in the mouth, but I did flip him over quickly to look for slashes on his throat and there were 2 very very small but noticable marks. Not the 1 inch long stripes i would expect for a cutt this size, but rather a 1/3" or so.

    [IMG]
  4. D3Smartie Active Member

    Posts: 1,987
    WA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
  5. Jim Wallace Smells like low tide

    Posts: 5,628
    Somewhere on the Coast
    Ratings: +532 / 0
    Nothing like having your own pet hybrid to exercise! Caught him again! That's awesome!:thumb:
  6. floatinghat Member

    Posts: 294
    near enough to Seattle
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    What a ham of a fish, wanting to get a better picture on the web! Well it is a good looking fish.
  7. Bruce Baker Active Member

    Posts: 514
    Olympia, WA
    Ratings: +39 / 0
    You're quite welcome. Some good news. I was able to find some more information.

    Strait of Juan de Fuca
    Eastern SJF complex: 60 fish were collected from one stream. No hybrids.
    Mid SJF complex: 212 fish collected from 4 streams. Eleven fish were hybrids.

    Washington Coast
    North Region
    Sol Duc complex: 85 fish were collected from 2 streams. No hybrids.
    Quillayute complex: 32 fish were collected. No hybrids.
    Queets complex: 130 fish were collected from 3 streams. One fish was a hybrid.

    South Region
    Chehalis complex: 25 fish were collected from 1 stream. No hybrids.
    Willapa complex: 26 fish were collected from 1 stream. No hybrids.
    North/Smith Cr./Cedar complex: 36 fish collected from 1 stream. No hybrids.

    Lower Columbia River Region
    Cowlitz complex: Cowlitz WDFW hatchery. No hybrids found in 119 samples.
    Elochoman complex: Beaver Creek WDFW hatchery. No hybrids found in 99 samples.
    Kalama complex: 60 fish collected from 1 stream. No hybrids.
    Lewis complex: 51 fish were collected from 1 stream. The table I have states that 50 fish
    were hybrids, which is wrong. Since it's been a long time and I don't know how easily I can verify the number of hybrids, I will say that to the best of my knowledge, 1 hybrid was found and that I erroneously put down the number of "pure" cutthroat, not hybrids.
  8. D3Smartie Active Member

    Posts: 1,987
    WA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    fascinating stuff for sure. Thank you!
  9. Steve Rohrbach Puget Sound Fly Fisher

    Posts: 606
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +43 / 0
    David, nice job of catching Walter again. I am impressed having heard that reel sing on Sunday. Thanks for bringing this discussion to light. It is amazing how much there is to learn about these fish we love. I am off to New York early tomorrow and will be working Issaquah Salmon Days in two weeks. I will be ready to chase when I get back. Take care buddy.
  10. D3Smartie Active Member

    Posts: 1,987
    WA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    Have fun back east. i'll be ready for when you get back. Pink was the color of choice for the second go around. I know you have some of those in your box now.
    I'll be working on my staging salmon flies and be ready for when you return.
    Travel safe.
  11. WT Member

    Posts: 762
    Seattle, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    Very cool thread. On most threads I find myself wading through one sarcatstic comment after another that have little bearing on the given subject but here I find cool pics and actual facts about one of our local fisheries.
    Thanks to all for the good info.

    have good fishing,
    WT
  12. Smalma Active Member

    Posts: 2,737
    Marysville, Washington
    Ratings: +530 / 0
    Bruce-
    Thought of sending you a PM however given the general interest in this topic thought I would communicate my ideas via this discussion.

    I understand the lack of $$ of a full blown study however it seems to me that these larger hybrids are not a very common critter. So I wonder if there is an interested bio/genetist that would be willing to oversee and provide direction to a sampling effort that the interest folks here might be able to begin collection of samples (fin tissue and scales?) with the goal of expanding our understanding of another of the aspect of the diversity of the this interesting species.

    My idea is that a group of interest folks get together either face to face or via an email train to discuss the hybrids and what the implications and interests are from that hybridization. Once we have some sort of handle on the interest and potential direction that some sort of sampling program be designed with established protocols. Once it is off the ground and some samples are in hand maybe then we can devote some energy to find the $$ (how much?) to have genetic samples run as well as work with folks that are comfortable (qualitified?) to read scales to look at life history of these older/larger fish.

    I'm talking very much of the top of my head.

    Anyone - any addition ideas, comments, or thoughts?

    Tight lines
    Curt
  13. ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

    Posts: 3,207
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Ratings: +111 / 0
    contact UW I suspect they'd be most likely to study trout
  14. Bruce Baker Active Member

    Posts: 514
    Olympia, WA
    Ratings: +39 / 0
    Thanks for your comments Curt. I don't think it would be a problem to throw a few fish in, but that would dependent upon what species they were analyzing. I can certainly bring this up with one of the biologists in the WDFW genetics unit. I can also contact a biologist I know that is with NOAA-Fisheries. I think NOAA would have a little more latitude on what samples they run and analyze. It would also be interesting to look at the mitochondrial DNA and see which species is the female in these crosses.
  15. TQ New Member

    Posts: 25
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Folks from NOAA-Fisheries and UW have been tracking the movements of steelhead and cutthroat in Hood Canal with ultrasonic transmitters in 2006, 2007 and 2008. There will be DNA analysis of these fish and some may turn out to be hybrids. It will indeed be interesting to see how their movements compare to the pure species. Incidentally, a number of studies have shown that it can be very difficult to distinguish hybrids from pure rainbow/steelhead and cutthroat trout, especially when the fish are small. Indeed, the newly emerged fry of the two species are essentially indistinguishable. It is fascinating that their freshwater aspects are quite similar and their marine aspects are so different...
    thanks for all the good comments,
    TQ
  16. MauiJim ka lawai'a

    Posts: 272
    Issaquah, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Guys-
    I did my MS research at UW in a fisheries genetics lab- I worked on spiny dogfish popgen, not salmonids, but a buddy of mine worked on the Stehekin system, specifically looking at rainbow and cutthroat habitat overlap in the river. He used the remarkably simple karyotyping method (counting actual chromosomes, not genes) to ID cutts, bows, and hybrids.

    This method is advantageous in that it doesn't require large sample sizes (most genetic techniques utilize n=100 or more, though more powerful markers are reducing these sample sizes), is relatively cheap, and is robust (results are conclusive, and not based on statistics or modeling).

    He has the techniques optimized, so it would simply take an interested MS student or even a UW Capstone (sr. project) to put this together. I'd have to check for karyotyping, but a simple fin clip preserved in ethanol is typically enough material to get a positive ID. As mentioned, scales will give interesting insight to life history of individuals.

    I can get in touch with my old advisor, but what kind of interest is there for collecting samples? Would people be willing to carry a baggie of small plastic vials w/ ethanol and take a small fin clip, and a pic of the fish, with a few details? Finding hybrids may be difficult, but piggybacking this question on top of a broader study may make this appealing to a student/lab.
  17. Matt Baerwalde ...

    Posts: 736
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +128 / 0
    Code:
    He has the techniques optimized, so it would simply take an interested MS student or even a UW Capstone (sr. project) to put this together. I'd have to check for karyotyping, but a simple fin clip preserved in ethanol is typically enough material to get a positive ID. As mentioned, scales will give interesting insight to life history of individuals.
    
    I can get in touch with my old advisor, but what kind of interest is there for collecting samples? Would people be willing to carry a baggie of small plastic vials w/ ethanol and take a small fin clip, and a pic of the fish, with a few details? Finding hybrids may be difficult, but piggybacking this question on top of a broader study may make this appealing to a student/lab.
    That's a really cool idea. I wish I had seen this a couple years ago, before graduation!

    Don't know about the legality of average joes clipping cutts though.
  18. The Quan member

    Posts: 73
    fishland, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Wow , I am glad this subject came up again, I don't make many posts or hang out often, but the interest in this is what I have been looking for because I am an analyst by nature. I skipped the last thread about hybrids because it did not seem to be going anywhere. Boy Have I got some stories and photos to show !!! I will start digging them out over the coming days when I can. I have been fishing the sound for over 20 years. There is one particular spot that I started fishing by need to find new water about 6 years ago. I have caught many hybrids. Some very big ones at that. One was so big at 24" that I had no doubt it was a steelhead until I rolled it over. I started rolling these fish over because I started catching more and more of them and it became apparent to me that rolling them over was the bullet proof way to see what it really was !! Some of them look just like a rainbow until I looked at the throat. Some cut marks are a faint orange and others are well defined.
    Anyway for years I have wanted to hook up with someone to solve this mystery. I could have taken a lot of samples by now but would not know who to take them too? Very fascinating subject. It is interesting that they are tracking these in the hood canal and sound? !!! I have always thought it would be a worthy study of their migration and habits.
    I will get back with more details and photos !!
    If someone wants to contact me about taking a sample of some kind. no problem, I will be going to fish this area soon. I have been waiting for the opportunity to do so.





  19. ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

    Posts: 3,207
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Ratings: +111 / 0
    A couple calls to fish and wildlife from UW should get the necessary permits
  20. reamse New Member

    Posts: 97
    Cheney, Washington
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I'm at Eastern in the MS program this fall.

    I'm sure I can get someone interested in this. Or talk to the Ichthology professor, there's a mini grant coming up for submission in about 3 weeks I could probably, slip in some funding for genetic analysis.

    But that would all be dependant on me driving 4+ hours...and not spending the grant money on the gas. Plus I need cash for my stable isotope samples.

    But i'll try to spread the word around to the faculty.

    :p