Dec Hogan signature series Fly Logic Spey

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by TomB, Nov 3, 2006.

  1. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

    To take things one step further Matt, Kinney was already deep into the spey thing when Dec Hogan and Scott O'Donnell got out of the Navy and decided to live the steelhead bum life up on the Skagit. This eventually evolved into the evolution of two great guides in Scott and Dec. If I remember right, Ed Ward got into the game with Dec Hogan and became Dec's "associate" guide. I did say, if I remember right. It's been awile, so things kind of run together in my head. Kinney was in the "mix-er" so to say with a list of old Skagit regulars that goes back to Lemire, Gallagher, Stroebel, Butorac, Green, Sorvel, Wintle, Farrar, Aid, our own Les Johnson and 20 or 30 other guys. Kinney was chopping up heads and using the bottom hand 20 years ago. If you watch the old seam ripper, everything about his style screams of mastery. Mastery of the Skagit style he helped invent and perfect. Now that I know. Kinney is the Jimi Hendrix of Skagit casting, only instead of ripping "Dolly Dagger" on a Strat, he's ripping a seam 75 feet away with the Meiser MKS rods he designed. Let's not forget Zelk that Kinney was trying to get people to build a rod with a heavier tip for "heads" and spey fishing long before anybody was offering Skagit rods. Bob Meiser was the first guy to acutally recognize Mike's genious and the MKS was born. Due to his low-key nature we probably will not really appreciate all he has taught us until he is gone. Lastly, many many years ago, Kinney had compacted the spey stroke and taken away any wasted economy even with longer bellies. The use of the bottom hand was something he was teaching long, long ago. And Zelk, go learn a little bit about Bob Stroebel. If Kinney is Jimi Hendrix, then Stroebel is Robert Johnson.;) Coach
     
  2. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

    Double post.
     
  3. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Yeah too bad smart ass yuppies now outnumber real spey bums 5 to 1. You can always tell who they are because they have the nicest gear, cast better than you (no doubt because of all the classes and guided fishing trips) and most importantly they never want to have a river side conversation. Plus it is all body language. They run in packs of 3 usually and often all have the same gear. Fuckin weirdos. I still cringe when I see a spey caster in gore-tex.

    Oh and about Dec Hogan moving to Salt Lake City: Not many fly fishers there and the ones that are usually hall balls 3 or so hours to the Green River.......I caught a 5# brown in a small stream 20 minutes from the insane urbanity of the SLC. There actually is amazing fishing there that is still fairly untapped.....maybe mormons aren't allowed to fish?

    However, Dec is still crazy.......or maybe his lady is smokin' hot......oh well......I thought the saying was "The best kind of head is steelhead." Perhaps Dec knows something we don't?
     
  4. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

    Oh come on dad, please take me fishing again. Please, please, please!
     
  5. softwaterstructure

    softwaterstructure Banned or Parked

    kerry is allowed to ignore the following comment because he actually lives it. he actually knows what he is talking about.

    oooooooh ooooooooooh ooooooooooooooooh!! can i play the name-dropping game as well????!??!?!?!?!? pretty please................................?????????????

    btw-
    jbuehler you are an idiot. just because someone knows how to cast doesnt make them a yuppie. it doesnt mean that they spent wads of money on instuction and guides. maybe theyve just put many years into doing it and eventually became good and usually they will be seen wearing gore-tex because anybody that knows anything and spends any large amount of time on the water knows that gore-tex is the most desirable material to fish in. like i said, you are an idiot.
     
  6. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Those two descriptions alone don't fit my classification and besides I wasn't being all that serious.....:rofl: I know classifying people is immature. My post was more about the huge influx of spey and other flyfishers in my lifetime and on my favorite holes since I got my spey rod at the tender agoe of 15. It drives me nuts but I know I have to accept it. But now that you have struck a nerve with me by calling me an idiot I will let it flow because it feels tooooo gooooood.

    I said it is all about body language; for instance the last 4 times I have been to the Skagit I have run into large group of guys, all looking the same with gortex Simms head to toe, and all about as snarky as you can imagine. Every bit of conversation I tried to make with them was met with a little curl of their lips and some vague reply. I used see Dec and those famous guys at the Mixer hole about 10 years ago and they would approach me and ask how the fishing was, they were never like these guys today. I knew who they were and I was impressed! Now that is a real fisherman and what a great community is like. That was before spey "claves" and other B.S.

    Oh, I assume that since you took so much offense to the comment you must be exactly who I am talking about, a yuppie. You can call me, "The guy who works his ass off and wishes he could still fish as much as he did when he was a kid and is jealous of all the lucky ones who fish all the time." I don't care. Just please don't act like a horses arse on the river and pretend you have been fishing these holes with a spey rod for your entire life. I know you probably live in the urban insanity somewhere south and are originally from California. I call you people “Explosive Growths”.

    At least I don't call people idiots who I don't even know. Would you call me an idiot to my face?

    “jbuehler you are an idiot. just because someone knows how to cast doesnt make them a yuppie”……Oh really?

    “anybody that knows anything and spends any large amount of time on the water knows that gore-tex is the most desirable material to fish in. like i said, you are an idiot.”.............You make me laugh!
     
  7. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

    Hey Matt, lets do it son. As soon as some of these rivers have a vis of more then 8 inches lets do some fishing. I need to get something wet and a fly line is likely easier then dropping the whole rod in.

    Why is it when ever folks start talking about the Skagit style it turns into a pissing match?:confused:
     
  8. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Becuase people love pissing over the internet. It leads to fewer black eyes.
     
  9. cnaka

    cnaka New member

    [Why is it when ever folks start talking about the Skagit style it turns into a pissing match?:confused:[/QUOTE]

    Talking Skagit is like talking religion or politics to some. What's in a name? Let's not forget it's just fishing at the end of the day.
     
  10. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

    Talking Skagit is like talking religion or politics to some. What's in a name? Let's not forget it's just fishing at the end of the day.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, perhaps. I don't know any other way myself. Like in the "How'd ya learn" thread I learned the so called Skagit cast and never really broaden my skills mainly because I didn't have any reason to. When I first started I would run into guys like Ed or Mike or Dec and I would follow them through runs and watch every cast they made.

    I followed Mike through a run years ago on the upper Skagit. He caught a couple of steelhead (yeah I said a couple) in front of me and then he switched flies. I wondered why the guy was changing flies after hooking 2 fish. He then caught several bulls. I then noticed he had put on a whitish or flesh colored streamer. He was intentionally targeting the bulls. I think that was when I made the connection of actually fishing with a 2 hander and not just throwing line.

    I remember seeing Harry at Grandy and catching a steelhead after he had gone through the run. I was never so exited about a fish as I was that one. But what I really remember about Harry was where most guys would cast 80 to 90 feet at Grandy, Harry was only casting about 40 or 50. And guess where I got my fish. About 40 feet out. I learned it is about reading the water and not a distance thing.

    I watched Matt doing his overhand thing one day and it dawned on me I had never seen anyone do that before with a spey rod. There is a run just below the mouth of the Sauk that the only way to really get your fly into the right place is to overhand. With out seeing Matt do his thing I would not have tried it at this run and would never have fished it effectively.

    Another run further down the river had produce fish for me but it was difficult at best to do a Skagit cast with a sink tip. I took someone from the board fishing with me last year or maybe the year before. Sorry I can't remember your name now. Anyway he suggested fishing it with a floating line. I had never thought of something so simple. I just kept fighting the Skagit line and really never fishing this section very well. With a floater you can cover the entire run with ease.

    It is about fishing not what style you use to get the fly out there. Each of us has something to teach the other. Lets not get into name calling and retaliation. Go fishing with each other. You will be better for it.
     
  11. Will Atlas

    Will Atlas Guest

    everyone is just pissy cause the rivers are blown out, we all need to take a deep breath and go fishing. jbeuler, no one likes to fish in a crowd, and no one likes assholes, but we can all agree that generalizing is just as dangerous. Matt, I dont know if you meant me, when you harped on people not respecting the past but I certainly do. I just think fly fishing is largely about personal experience, being in nature, and spending time doing something you enjoy. I guess I'm rambling here, but I just think its odd that this post went from a gear question to a shouting match about river asthetics and who matters most in skagit casting. Hope everyone goes out and catches a fish this weekend.
    cheers,
    Will
     
  12. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Yes you are right. And right again.....we all need to go fishing! :thumb:
     
  13. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

    Since this thread has drifted . . . ,

    The first two handed fly rods I ever saw was a 12' Sharpes bamboo used by Eric Masonpierre on the NF Stilly in 1976. A couple years later he had the only grahpite two hander made in the US that I knew of, a 12' 10 wt by Fenwick, that was a club by any measure.

    A few years later, Harry Lemire bought an old 12 or 13' Leonard bamboo, more as a novelty than something he intended to seriously fish with, if I recall. That rod weighed nearly two pounds.

    Jimmy Green was fishing the Skagit with Bob Strobel in the mid 1980s and brought one of his first 16' graphite prototypes. Jimmy used a heavy head and mono running line and was casting the rod overhead style. Lemire and Strobel first used 16' rods and later the 14' prototypes, and began playing around with shooting heads attached to floating running lines. Jimmy later gave me one of the 16' prototype blanks, and I bought a DT10F to use on it because I don't care to fish shooting heads. Harry and Bob told me they used 18-26' feet of 12 wt floating line as the foundation for their shooting heads, with which they made their unique "pop" cast. Maybe that was the predecessor to the Skagit cast, or maybe not; I don't know. It was useful for fishing when there is no space behind you for a D loop. I kept using my DT10 partly cuz I had no idea where to get a 12 wt line, and because I regarded the two hander mainly as a novelty and useful for roll casting in places where there was no backcast room. The 16' rod was such an unweildy thunderstick that I continued to mainly fish single handed rods.

    The next thing I knew, SA was selling Spey lines that were probably equivalent to contemporary mid-Spey lines, and Rio introduced the Wind Cutter Spey line. I couldn't cast those at all. Mainly cuz I couldn't Spey cast, and many would say that I still can't.

    My greatest disappointment in regards to Spey casting is that the elegant Spey casts that are so aesthetically pleasing to watch require as much backcast room for that beautiful D or V loop as I need to effectively cast a single handed rod. I still think the most practical application is the ability to roll or Spey cast where the backcast room equals zero, because that has opened up a lot of water for me. I pulled a 20# steelhead out of the Hermit on the Skagit using an 8 1/2' rod, and roll casting there was an endless struggle. That and three places on the Sauk I would have fished much more consistently had I had a Spey rod that would have made those places a pleasure, rather than a pain to fish. So now I'm devoting time to learning to Spey cast so I can look stylin' like the cool guys - no, really I'm doing it so that I can cast with less effort expended. But the real value to me as an angler comes back to the conventional roll casts or short Spey casts made with no D loop because of those prime steelhead locations that offer zero backcast or D loop room. For example, Sauk Bar (aka the "fly bar") is really popular for fly fishing for steelhead. How many of you who fish it have fished it from the left (high) bank side? Steelhead live there, too, you know, at certain water levels.

    Sincerely,

    Salmo g.
     
  14. Will Atlas

    Will Atlas Guest

    I just got dec hogans now book, its got a really nice history (from his perspective) of how things evolved.
     
  15. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

    Salmo g,

    When I was told the story of Harry and Bob getting into the 2 handed rod world it was said that these two were looking mainly for a system or method that their wifes could use to cast the heavy sink tips and flies needed for winter steelheading. As the story was told thiers wives had difficulty casting with single hand rods. After they played around a little bit with the 2 handers they both realized the tremendous benefits of fishing for steelhead with a spey rod. The rest is now Skagit legend. I guess I could ask Bob but if you know if this is just rumor or if there is some truth in this story it would be nice to hear what you have to say.
     
  16. luckybalbowa

    luckybalbowa Member

    I just read this thread. wow! Lots of knowledge here! I sure wish that this knowledge would be used to help that guy who's writing his senior thesis on spey casting! :thumb:

    To answer a few questions

    Yes: Mormons are allowed to fish

    No: there is no shortage of flyfishermen in this state. Too many here if you ask me.

    No: There arent more mormons than fish. In fact, Utah is one of the best places to be with a fly rod. Every piece of water here has fish in it. Heck, when I fill the bath tub, I almost expect to find trout in it! (But, I would trade a year's worth of trout for one good steelie!)

    I dont know: why dec hogan moved to SLC. I know he's married into a family up here, so maybe that's the case. I'll let you all know after I interview him.
     
  17. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

    Kerry,

    Memory issues here. I didn't mean to leave an important part out. Middle age is tough. Don't know if I'll remember anything when I get old.

    Yes, Bob did develop his two handed rod interest as a means of helping his wife fish. Joanne is also short and couldn't wade very deep. That didn't stop her on the Morice, where a 30' cast could catch a lot of fish. But winter fishing on the Skagit is much different. I don't think it was so much the heavy tips and flies, since they really aren't that heavy. I think the main issue was making it possible to reach viable steelhead holding water when she couldn't really wade very deep, or were uncomfortable trying to wade deep.

    Anyway, Bob assembled his first two hander for Joanne, saw the potential, "borrowed" her rod for research, and "Spey" fishing for steelhead took off like a rocket. All those two handed blanks that Jimmy Green's wife used for garden stakes suddenly had a market.

    Marlene doesn't fish, and I don't think she ever did.

    Sincerely,

    Salmo g.
     
  18. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

    Thanks Salmo, the basic story seems to be true. I had heard it a few times in the past. I see Bob rarely these days and was curious. Although I was driving down a dirt road near the mouth of the GR this fall. Walking hand in hand along side the road were an older couple. I almost drove past them when I looked over and noticed it was Bob and his wife. What a treat to run into those two so far from home. I spent the next hour talking with them before continuing my fishing.
     
  19. Rayne Rivers

    Rayne Rivers Member

    The rod for Joanne Strobel was built by Jim Green and initially used in an overhead capacity.

    The lines and casting style used at the "beginning" by Jimmy Green, Bob Strobel, and Harry Lemire were patterned after seeing Goran Anderssen's casting. In other words, it was an emulation of his "Underhand" casting style.

    That was the "true origin" of Skagit casting.

    That basic concept was then expanded upon in following years by several individuals going at it on their own, thus the many variations on what has come to be known as "Skagit casting".

    Many of the names mentioned nowadays as being "originators" of Skagit casting are factually erroneous, and in fact did not enter into the Skagit casting arena until after most of the basic premises for the style had already been established.

    Two names that don't get nearly enough credit in the whole Skagit casting discussion are Bob Strobel and Marlow Bumpus.
     
  20. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

    Just curious Rayne Rivers, why no mention of Mike Kinney with the Bob Strobel and Harry Lamire period of evolution? Or do you consider Mike Kinney as one of the factually erroneous "originators".