Dec Hogan signature series Fly Logic Spey

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by TomB, Nov 3, 2006.

  1. TomB

    TomB Active Member

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    this whole discussion has gotten ridiculous- it is a total pissing contest dedicated to proclamations of "who did what first." It reminds me of a certain local guide's website proclaiming he invented shooting heads, hoodsport fishery, and fishing for dollies/char. I know you guys don't wan't to sound like him, so chill. It is not as if inventing a style of fishing gives you ownership...i believe every individual mentioned is a great fisherman in his own right.
    -T
     
  2. luckybalbowa

    luckybalbowa Member

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    Just a thought, but it seems as though people are leaving out the possibility that there were a few people responsible for innovating casting at the same time working independently of each other (not speaking entirely about just skagit casting but developing two handed casting in the pacnw). As far as my research is showing for my thesis paper, this seems to be the case. It would make sense that good fishermen would come to some of the same conclusions and make similar innovations to improve their fishing.

    If you gave a good fly fisherman a two-handed rod, taught him a few different basic casts, and then left him alone and deserted on an island (preferably with a good steelheading river :) ) I bet he would start to develop casts that are in existance now without ever being shown them.
     
  3. Rayne Rivers

    Rayne Rivers Member

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    If you call setting the record straight being a "pissing contest", so be it.

    The Green-Lemire-Strobel period was the basic origin or "seed" that was planted to enable the creation of Skagit casting, and took place in the mid 1980's. However, that casting used back then, was still quite a bit different from the Skagit casting that is known today. It took many years of experimentation by a few individuals, along with a co-mingling of their acquired information and ideas, in order for the method to thresh itself out. The majority of this threshing took place from the late 1980's to just before the mid 1990's. During this period RIO introduced its Windcutter line, and the majority of anglers that used a shootinghead system on DH rods became converts to those lines. However, a handful of anglers that found they were not completely satisfied with the Windcutter approach, continued to hammer away at trying to produce a better system. It was that period around the mid 90's when some happenstance meetings occurred on the Skagit and Sauk rivers. From those meetings the joining of two circumstances happened - the design of lines shorter than Windcutters and heavier per unit than Underhand lines, along with the ability/sources to acquire the materials to build such lines. It was this period that REALLY established Skagit casting, as this was when "true" Skagit lines were truly refined into Skagit lines. It then took a few years from this point in order to establish the "ground rules" for the design of the lines, weight/length ratios, casts that worked best, etc.

    The fact is, no one person could have come up with this concept on their own. It took quite a few "coincidences of circumstance" for all the pieces to come together. I know because I was part of it. I just think that it is a shame that there are those that basically rode in on the coattails of the process, yet claim to have contributed more. I do not wish to start a "tit for tat" arguement on who deserves to be on the credit list and who doesn't... at this point just about anybody that fished the Skagit system in that time frame can state a claim and how could they be disproven? But let's just say that the major players were basically a part of the Jimmy Green circle, or the Intruder clan.
     
  4. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Tom B,

    While your original thread has drifted and there's been a bit of sniping, the historic elements surrounding Spey casting here in the PNW interest many of us. I really don't care who did what first, since it obviously wasn't me, and I won't be short-changed any moment of fame. However, like others, I'm interested in how some of the pieces fit together.

    Rayne,

    What do you know about Goran Anderssen with respect to the development of this unique NW casting style? I've only heard his name in very recent years. Did Bob and Harry know him? Was Anderssen around the Skagit in the 80s? I ask because Bob and Harry were using something they called a "pop" cast for their short Spey heads, and I never heard them mention anything called "underhand" casting during the 80s or 90s. Can you describe when Anderssen's style was added to the evolving technique that Bob and Harry were using?

    In hindsight, I realize I should have been paying closer attention to this development. I still thought of the whole two handed rod scene as a novelty, since I was still happily catching steelhead on my single handed rod every time I went to the Skagit. Somehow I remained blissfully unaware that the forest of tall fly rods growing up around me was a steelheading revolution in progress.

    Matt,

    I don't know how Kinney fits in the casting development picture. Green, Strobel, and Lemire all fished together, and Strobel and Bumpus spent a lot of time at Green's house rolling prototype graphite rod blanks, as did Al Buhr. Kinney was splicing sink tip lines for other people for steelheading as far back as the 70s, but he didn't fish with Harry and Bob as far as I know. Of course, not fishing together isn't the same as never comparing notes on casting technique, but I really don't know when Mike became part of the Spey casting talent developing on the Skagit.

    Sincerely,

    Salmo g.
     
  5. luckybalbowa

    luckybalbowa Member

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    Rayne,

    It sounds like you know a lot about this subject. I am writing an historical account about the beginnings of two handed rods in the PacNW. I would sure like you to fill out my survey and email it to me. I need to make sure to hear from all sides to the story

    Thanks,

    Mark
     
  6. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

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    This is interesting, regardless of the ego shit. Lucky, use your PM abilities.
     
  7. harleytio

    harleytio Member

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    I wonder why I thought this post was about a certain rod--Why has it changed to name calling and many other topics-This forum seems to changing-Maybe it is just me-So what are you going to call me now--I will answer all reply`s--Just my 02c worth..

    harleytio
     
  8. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

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    These things always turn into a pissing contest. Like it’s a competition to see who can toss out more names. And as usual, the guy’s names who are being tossed couldn’t give a flyin’ f_ck either way.

    I believe this is why one person can’t be pinned with the originator title. Same frustration occurs when trying to find the origins of certain flies too.

    I Agree. I think people throw out names depending on who they are the biggest fan of.

    You say Intruder, I say Ed Ward. Which coincides with your threshing dates of late 1980's to just before the mid 1990's. Ed Ward moved out here from Michigan in the mid-1980’s. Ed and Marlow put a lot of work into the Skagit cast and lines together. Thanks for you input Rayne Rivers. Always very cool to have as many perspectives as possible.

    This has been a great thread on the Skagit cast/line history. Wish there was more I could add, but I am a nobody and not a part of its history. The Intruder is a great fly too. For those of you reading along, Ed Ward’s Intruder was featured in Fish & Fly, winter, 2002. Doing a search on speypages would get you a lot more information on the people involved and many photos of the intruder.
     
  9. Will Atlas

    Will Atlas Guest

    Word bro
     
  10. harleytio

    harleytio Member

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    Actually I guess it is time to delete this forum and let the JERKS continue playing with themselves in their tube socks.I would like to say that it was fun but it was not..............

    Harleytio
     
  11. Rayne Rivers

    Rayne Rivers Member

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    I don't know when Goran "invented" his style of casting. However, it was "pre-Skagit", and their are claims that Goran is in fact the originator of the "Underhand" style of Speycasting.

    I don't remember exactly the details of the Goran/Lemire/Strobel interaction. Whether they personally observed his casting, or got word of it secondhand through Jim Green. Goran had been to the Sage rod plant, perhaps more than once, to "test" the Sage Spey rods of that time. Those rods, the "Euros", were designed with the input of Goran.

    To illustrate that this appears to be the beginnings of the Skagit style, consider the fact that a few years after the above mentioned circumstances occurred, Sage came out with the 9140-4, a rod with an action that was completely different from the Euro models. The design of that rod was influenced by input from Strobel and Lemire.

    The best sources to reference for this part of the history of DH's in the PNW would be Strobel and Lemire. Jimmy Green would also have been invaluable in sorting this history, but sadly he is no longer of this Earth.
     
  12. Rayne Rivers

    Rayne Rivers Member

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    Lucky,
    For a thesis on the re-introduction of the DH into the PNW, I recommend talking with the following people:

    Harry Lemire
    Bob Strobel
    Jim Vincent (of RIO fame)
    Trey Combs
    Denise Maxwell (Mike Maxwell's wife)
     
  13. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

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    Some of you guys need to chill a bit. This thread has some fantastic information into the history of two handed rod use in the PNW. Get past the fact that some of us like to drop names. So what. You can learn from these posts if you care to. I am proud of the fact that I got to meet, fish with and learn from a lot of the guys whose names are being dropped here.

    Hey Rayne, here is a name for you, Wayne Kline.

    Also I make no claim to have any input to the development of any style of lines, casting styles, etc. I have been fortunate enough to have been in the right place at the right time to have met one or two people that fish a 2 handed rod.
     
  14. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    I'm with you, Kerry. I don't understand why some of the posters are gettin' bent out of shape. This has been a fun reminisce.

    Thanks, Rayne. I remember Bob and Harry advising Jimmy on the 14' rod, but can't place the time. Do you recall when Sage introduced the 9140? I'm thinking 1988, but am uncertain. It was really the bee's knees compared to those 16' thundersticks. I'd ask Bob or Harry about the year, but their memories are as bad as mine.

    Anybody recall when Rio introduced the Windcutter? I remember a friend having one when it came out. Was that 1996?

    Sincerely,

    Salmo g.
     
  15. doublespey

    doublespey Steelhead-a-holic

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    Good memories indeed!

    I'll throw one in. I was watching Goran Anderson's demo at Ben Howard on the Skykomish in the early 90s. Harry Lemire showed up about midway thru (had finished his morning's fishing) to watch and asked what had been demonstrated (underhanded techniques/single spey).

    After the demo, he was introduced to Goran and offered several of his flies and suggestions for post-demo fishing. Seemed to me that was the first time they'd met.

    As for the rest - just another cock fight. ptyd

    DS
     
  16. Rayne Rivers

    Rayne Rivers Member

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    That then, sounds like the first personal encounter between Harry and Goran. But, the Lemire/Strobel casting had definitely been influenced by Goran far previous to that point. It was then, probably through Jimmy Green, after Jimmy had watched Goran test casting the Sage Euro's. I have been told the story several times by Jimmy himself, but considering all the great stories I've been priveledged to hear from so many of this sports most notable personalities, the details get lost.

    My first encounter with Speyrods was on the Skagit - the infamous Sauk Bar:Mixer - on an early Spring morning in the mid 80's. I can remember "cornering" one of the two gentlemen wielding the long rods as he walked by upriver on the bar to make another pass. It was none other than Bob Strobel. The angler still in the water fishing was Harry Lemire. I literally saturated the poor guy with questions about their chosen approach to steelheading. Bob was more than happy to indulge me with answers. That day, that meeting, changed my angling life forever. The next Fall, 1987, I purchased a Spey rod. The rods they were using at the time? Proto's for the 9140-4 rolled by the master himself, Jimmy Green!
     
  17. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

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    Spey rods.......I invented those....I was inspired while taking a piss on the side of the Sauk river some years ago......though most guys fish ones that are WAY too short.....Longer-fatter rods.....that is how it should be.....at least to refelct my original vision.








    ;)

    But seriously this is a GOOD thread. I feel ashamed of my pissing and sorry for getting pissed.
     
  18. speyghillie

    speyghillie speyghillie

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    Holy Smoke i was just reading this thread about Dec Hogan rods, i must have missed something or clicked on some other page.
    I have no idea about who started Skagit casting and i don't really care, as for underhand casting and Goran inventing is, my arse.
    The style of underhand casting was used, talked about and written about 100yrs ago, i dont think Goran was teaching it then.
    Casting styles aquire different names every week, but most have been around for a long long time, and very little is new , just the name.
    Gordon.
     
  19. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    I've read those accounts too. I agree with you that the only major difference between what was being talked about then and what Goran became the ambassador for, not the inventor of, in our time is the tackle he uses and did have a hand in developing, namely shorter lines and in many cases shorter stiffer rods. Goran obviously felt the most important piece of what he does is the use of the lower hand, hence the name of the style, and as you said, that sure as heck ain't a new concept!

    Lots of folks have begun using the "underhand casting" stroke which many of us, myself included, thought of as only a shooting head storke on long lines. Funny how it comes around to the beginning again isn't it. :rofl:
     
  20. speyghillie

    speyghillie speyghillie

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    I think we should start a new thread, maybe a little history one from both sides of the pond, as this was really about Dec Hogan rods.
    As you know philster there is little new in Speycasting only the names, multi tip lines, floating lines, styles of casting, nothing new but the name.
    The River Spey is 90% fly only all year, as many rivers in Scotland ,and over the years this has lead to guy's trying out different casting technics, but then there was nothing to gain, fishing was just a hobby and nobody really made any money from it and no MARKETING :eek: .
    Everybody should be able to cast which ever way they want and enjoy it, and it should be a lot less complicated, thats why we have single handed rods and double - handed rods of all sizes here. short or long its still called a double - handed rod.
    Now if you wanted to start a thread on Speycasting History and some of the truly amazing story's . :cool:
    Gordon.
     

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