Delta 6/7 turnover issues

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, May 6, 2011.

  1. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    So who uses heavier tips to facilitate turnover of larger flies? After a whole day of fishing yesterday, I learned the 77grn tips that come with the 6/7 delta, really suck for medium flies. Anything larger than a #2 skunk or equivalent profile was a real exercise in futility! The other problem was when I did manage to get a larger fly out to a fish-able distance, the resistance on the fly caused the light tip to ride up really fast, so I never felt like I was really in the zone....the guys I was with joked about my "Floater" all day.

    Anyway, I think I've devised a solution, just want to hear what others suggest before I say what I think and hear all about how it will never work. By the way using Delta 6/7 W/ tips on a 7136 Z-Axis

    Thanks, James.
  2. stewart dee Guest

    Posts: 0
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I cut mine back for heavy tips. I find that a delta is a good line for type III and floater with smaller flies, as stock.
  3. Greg Holt Active Member

    Posts: 154
    camano island, wa.
    Ratings: +54 / 0
    James,
    Experts on this board say it takes grains to throw grains, or other versions of the same relationship between line weight, tip weight, and fly weight. On my 11'6 6/7 Forecast, I prefer the lighter end of the grain window (say 360), while my son throws 500 grains on the same rod. This allows him to "upgrade" to T-14
    (10 foot length) and throw flies you would consider heavier. I can't duplicate that with my 360 gr head and 75 gr tip (T-8), but I don't want to.

    If/when I need to throw large stuff, I jump up to a TR1266 (which throws like a 7 wt) with a 450 airflo skagit compact (blunt front end) and 10 feet of T-14, rather than the Rio flights I prefer in the lighter weights. If that is insufficient in terms of performance, I go up in rod weight, line weight, and tip weight. til I can turn over the chosen fly (which by this time is no longer a fly, but an animal).

    I also have had success with shorter stiffer leaders too in turning over the big stuff. Nothing new there.

    I don't know the grain range of your Z axis, but I wonder if it could handle a heavier line or at least heavier tips than you fished? If you've discovered a new way to bend the laws of physics, TESTIFY, BROTHER, your congregation awaits!
    Greg
  4. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    I too like light weight, that's why i'm trying to make the 6/7 work...may have to go up to a 7/8. I do have other set up that will do it, but I'm working on my Delta skills...I really like the longer head and have really bought into the delta will make you a better caster bit.
  5. Red Shed "junkyard spey"

    Posts: 517
    Peck, ID
    Ratings: +7 / 0
    Maybe you're trying to haul a BIG load of beer with a Mini Cooper.
  6. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    No, I'm not a car keys kind of guy. Here are a couple of pictures of two willing participants today. The MOAL is hanging out of the one fish I'm holding.

    By the way, Thanks Poppy! thats a Delta line from your shop...welded with the awesome heat gun you sold me and looped to the Varivas running line that I got at the same time, to replace the hunk of rope they put on this line from the factory. Love the line, just needed to put my spin on it and make it mine.
  7. Panhandle Active Member

    Posts: 4,103
    Selkirk Mountains, Idaho Panhandle
    Ratings: +23 / 0
    Compact skagit :D
  8. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Nothing against the compact Skagit or any skagit for that matter, I've decided to just not use them anymore.
    "My name is James, I've been Skagit free for almost two and a half years."
  9. Big Tuna Member

    Posts: 1,965
    Wenatchee, Washington
    Ratings: +44 / 0
    If you want to throw heavy flies, the line will be a stretch. If you want to throw good sized flies that are light, tie marabou spiders on plastic tubes. You can make a good-sized fly w/ a nice profile, but little weight. I fish that line w/ the type 6 tip and it casts nicely. But I don't throw heavy junk with it. I also fish a little heavier line. I have an MKS 7/8 and an LS2 1307; I fish a 8/9 on the former and a 7/8 on the latter.
  10. stewart dee Guest

    Posts: 0
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I have an 8/9 and a 9/10 chopped back and looped for heavy tips if you want to try them out?
  11. Leroy Laviolet Aint no nookie like chinookie

    Posts: 994
    do'n it 4 the chinookie
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    James, upline one size to a 7/8 for that rod, that will solve your problem- I upline in the winter with my deltas one size for the bigger flies, as said earlier, mass turns over mass-
  12. Greg Holt Active Member

    Posts: 154
    camano island, wa.
    Ratings: +54 / 0
    What Stewart and Poppy say.
    I cut back a 6/7 airflow delta by about five feet years ago before skagits were popular. You end up with a total head length of around 49 feet, and a tip diameter in the range of sixty to 70 thousandths, just enough to turn over T-14. Longer than a skagit, more powerful than a delta, able to cast over tall buildings in a single haul? You'll have the strange desire to wear a cape when you fish it...

    Oh wait, isn't that what they attempted with the design of the Northwest Skagit and the SA product equal?

    Problem is, you're trying to make a small hammer do when a big one is the better tool for (YOUR) chosen task. Lots of others have gotten bogged down in this hole, you might as well too. I'll get myself a beer and watch this unfold.
    Peace.
  13. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Thanks guys. Up sizing was my first thought, and cutting the head back was my second. The first choice, was not an option on short notice, and then there's the whole more money thing. The second option of cutting it back, just seemed ridiculous as I have a few lines already that are in the 40' range, but after looking at the taper and weight distribution I wondered, "Why not just use a heavier tip?" So I used a 129grn tip which was about 50grns heavier and worked very well. Of course my first concern was hinging at the loop to loop connection...it did...but was manageable with casting adjustments. I've also got a set of tips for my DDC that are 125grns, they all worked nicely. I'm thinking a set of rio 8wt 15' tips might be the dialed in solution. Anyway, the solution was more mass...nothing new really.
  14. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

    Posts: 870
    Vancouver, WA.
    Ratings: +45 / 0
    You are such a Rebel!! LOL Don't you know... Not fishing a skagit with a two handed rod is like using a two handed rod with only one hand.
  15. Panhandle Active Member

    Posts: 4,103
    Selkirk Mountains, Idaho Panhandle
    Ratings: +23 / 0
    James, I respect your sobriety and support your abstinence from being strung out on short heads. My worry is that the stress of trying to be too clean will drive you back to the needle. Sobriety is all about balance.
  16. TomB Active Member

    Posts: 1,620
    seattle,wa
    Ratings: +58 / 0
    Hey James,

    I will be trying out different fly weights and tips with my 6/7 delta this year, so I can't speak directly to it yet. Up until this summer i had been using a 6/7 midspey on my 7125 burkie and i found that i could very comfortably cast flies up to medium size either on a long well tapered leader, or with tips up to ~75-100 grains (say a chopped off 8-10 ft piece of T-8) for example. Casting truly larger flies with large dumbbell eyes, or using pieces of T-14 worked considerably less well. A great non-skagit setup for casting larger junk in your line weight range is a cut back windcutter....then again, depending on how much we cut back, what we end up with resembles a skagit. For me, based on ease of casting, I have decided to go with the lighter weight mid and longer bellies for small-medium flies and or light tips...for large flies or heavy tips, either moving up to a higher line weight (my 9/10 GPS) turns over turkeys when properly cast, or moving to a shorter denser line on a light rod, turns the big stuff over more easily.

    -T
  17. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    It's funny hammer size has been raised...mass delivers mass? I'll put my 12 oz titanium Stilletto up against anybody's 23 oz Vaughn in an endurance contest...in reality the right tool will always be an air tool.

    I admit, I still own one 480 compact skagit, but I loaned it to a friend so I wouldn't be tempted.
  18. shawn k Member

    Posts: 697
    buckets worldwide
    Ratings: +19 / 0
    Try a nextcast winter authority. I played with one on my anderson and really likee.
  19. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Yeah, the winter authority, should have done my research better and got that one. I've heard many good things about that line.
  20. k2flyfisher its taco time. wheres the sauce?

    Posts: 407
    Portland, OR
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    James- also a fan of the winter authority for what it sounds like youre trying to do. and for all intents and purposes, the winter authority is quite similar to a fall favorite 45 cut back and turned into a "tip system". but to do this, the diameter of the ff45 was beefed up to over .101'' in the belly to create a strong enough delivery to propel larger flies.

    the comparable sro vector, on the other hand, i didnt find to peform as well in throwing heavier tips and flies, due to a difference in taper. (and thats perfectly acceptable given its purpose) we cant expect lines to do what theyre not designed to do.

    http://speypages.com/speyclave/showthread.php?t=41985&highlight=ff45 vector&page=2

    my basic rule for what lines i use is completely based on what fly im wanting to throw. theres definitely merit in pan saying that balance is a part of "sobriety", and remembering that the lines you throw wont make you an overall better caster, but that learning how to use your setup to the best of its abilities by dialing it in and playing to its strongpoints is also part of the learning curve.

    if a delta is what you want to throw on that 7136, the 6/7 (at least to me) is a bit on the light side for throwing heavier tips and will essentially demand more (load from the rod/effort from you), to reach that "terminal velocity" that is necessary to propel the larger fly/tip, where the heavier 7/8 will naturally be able to give, just due to its enhanced diet of grain. =)

    also, dont be afraid to cut the line back a bit from the tip to a diameter of at least .054''. it might make the larger junk easy to cast. that delta is definitely a powerful line if given the right "trimmings".

    beautiful spring steelhead btw!