Dog Training

Discussion in 'Cast & Blast' started by andrew, Jul 5, 2007.

  1. andrew Active Member

    Posts: 1,110
    Bellingham, WA.
    Ratings: +15 / 0
    I've begun to train Libby my seven month old chocolate lab with an E-collar. She knew prior to the collar sit, stay, and come. The later being her deficiency, as well as, some bad behavior such as counter and table prowling. After doing some investigation on line I decided to buy an E-collar to reinforce the good and resolve the bad. But in doing so I have ran into a wall...or at least in my mind a problem.

    I began with just getting the dog comfortable with the collar, and not using it. A few days later I set the level of stimulation based on the dogs response (first sign such as ear twitch or scrapping with leg). After which I took Libby for a walk, and gave stimulation when I gave a command, as well as, praise. However, after a week my dog hears the word come and immediately runs the opposite direction whether I give stimulation or not! I'm worried that I've "ruined" my dog, or is it to soon to throw the towel in on this collar? Anyone have similar problems? Any advice?

    Thanks,

    Andrew
  2. Roper Idiot Savant

    Posts: 4,286
    Glenraven Ranch
    Ratings: +771 / 1
    Andrew, I haven't a clue but the folks on Upland Journal do, log on and ask them.
  3. Jason Trout Bum

    Posts: 666
    Edmonds, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    We trained our GSP with an e-collar for off leash training. Being a dog that runs fast and away from you faster it really worked when we could call to have her return to us and she didn't, she would get buzzed, then she would return and be praised. It got to the point where we would just put it on her without turning it on and she would listen to all commands, now we don't even use it.

    First I would reccomend taking your dog to a standard obedience course. This really helped us in getting her to know we are in charge.
  4. Josh Benjamin Member

    Posts: 988
    duvall, wa
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    Why are you giving stimulation when giving a command?
    so are you saying come and nicking her at the same time? the way i work it...and this is only what worked for me...is i give the come command. if he doesn't come...i buzz the collar first. if that doesn't turn him, i nick him. i guess i don't understand what you mean when you say you give stimulation when you gave a command, but if you are saying come and zapping her at the same time...you'd run too, no?? i'm assuming thats not what you're doing. my lab after about a couple training sessions i barely even have to turn the collar on. just him knowing he has the collar on him is enough.
    other than that i'd get a book or do what roper said.
    does your collar have buzz, nick and continuos??
    the last thing i will tell you, again, my opinion only...is that if you use an e-collar wrong, you could really screw up your dog, so if you are just making stuff up as you go...stop and read a book.
  5. Gary Thompson dirty dog

    Posts: 3,891
    East Wenatchee, WA
    Ratings: +131 / 0
    Just my .02. get rid of the collar.
    Put your pup on a long lead. and command from there, give treats, praise. Make her come, more treats, praise.
    Next take the lead off when you do not have to pull your pup to you, in an enclosed area (fenced yard).
    "Come" is the most important command. If your dog won't come to you every time. You lose, dog is lost or killed. "Whoa" or "no bird" is the other command that is a must.
    A good book is "The gun dog" I don't remember the author. Sorry
  6. SightCast6X americanshotgunner.com

    Posts: 62
    Kirkland, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    If your on the Wetside. Contact Jim Cochran for dog training. 425-218-2880. He is in fall city and I won't send my dog anyplace else.

    I agree with Josh. It is imperitive that the dog knows the commands before you give stimulation. Spend more time with the Check chord and making training fun for the dog.

    When my dog see's his training collar he goes nuts! I can't get it on fast enough.

    Also you might have a collar on to HOT for your dog.
  7. Josh Benjamin Member

    Posts: 988
    duvall, wa
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    i agree for the most part. i should add that my dog is borderline OCD when it comes to playing with toys and the biggest reason i have a collar is so that i can play fetch or let him play with other dogs and their toys without him becoming a raging a$$hole. i could not give my dog enough treats to get him to give up his bumper. he spent a week at the canine coutry club in fall city...no good. the collar worked great and it is literally about the only time he ever has the collar on and when it is on him, like i said, it is usually not even turned on.

    i have the same issues. he's happier to see that collar come out than he is to see his leash or to get in the truck to go for a ride.
  8. andrew Active Member

    Posts: 1,110
    Bellingham, WA.
    Ratings: +15 / 0

    I know it seems absolutely backasswards, and I too questioned it, but this is exactly what the instructional DVD demonstrated. I have basically begun doing what you and a few others have mentioned, use it only has a corrective devise. I believe the DVD's ideology is opposite, however, I don't think it is working/right with my dog.

    Thanks for your advice!
  9. Josh Benjamin Member

    Posts: 988
    duvall, wa
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    HUH...wierd. get the check cord too...about 30' and use them both. show the pup what you want her to do and then praise the crap out of her.

    try it and let us know.
    if you ever go to the sportsmen's shows, there is usually a guy named Dan Marr(sp) that does a little free seminar thing usually centered around check cord training. it's worth the free price of admission to watch him talk.
  10. Roper Idiot Savant

    Posts: 4,286
    Glenraven Ranch
    Ratings: +771 / 1
    "I dont' hit, I don't hurt, I don't holler..."

    Words of wisdom from Dan on working with dogs...
  11. Kaari White Active Member

    Posts: 826
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +31 / 0
    I'm not an expert but I've trained a number of labs- with and without collars.

    The usage described in the posts in this thread are a great way to make a dog collar wise. What I mean is that when you use a collar incorrectly you train your dog to ONLY obey the collar. Using it to correct poorly trained dog will backfire in the end. Your dog should be solid on obedience before the collar is introduced. It's a tool, not a training method. Unless you plan to have your dog wear it 24/7 this manner of non-training is just a temporary fix. And what's the point of that?

    The key to using a e-collar and getting GOOD results from it is having the education on how to use it properly. I suggest you contact some professional trainers and/or buy some training books such as the 10 Minute Retriever by John Dahl. Stay clear of any of Richard Wolter's books.
  12. andrew Active Member

    Posts: 1,110
    Bellingham, WA.
    Ratings: +15 / 0
    Update....

    Gave the collar a break or shall I say the dog? Anyway, I am trying a new approach which is not far from the many comments and suggestions of your posts (thanks!).

    Libby has been pretty much on a check cord since day one since she has proven to be quite fast, sneaky, and at sometimes unruly.

    So, really the only time I'm using the collar which is on her 24/7 is during our walks and when we are in the house. During our walks I have been using it to keep her from "walking me" as well as taking off to visit other dogs and people.

    In the house I have been using it only to keep her off the counters, and table. I really don't know how she does it, but she has managed to open a plastic container of muffins (the type of container that can befuddle any human), and reach over 5' to grab a tupperware container of chips!

    Thanks again all for your advice!

    Andrew
  13. Kaari White Active Member

    Posts: 826
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +31 / 0
    Andrew, for her walks, why not get a prong collar? They're like power steering for dogs! They're easier for handler and dog than a choke chain.
  14. Josh Benjamin Member

    Posts: 988
    duvall, wa
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    my dog is 94 lbs and pulls like a freightliner...the pinch or prong collar works great.
  15. Itchy Dog Some call me Kirk Werner

    Posts: 3,733
    Doo-vall
    Ratings: +424 / 0
    I'm late to the party here, but I'll chime in with my two cents', which is all that it may be worth.
    Remember that a young pup is like a kid, and you can't expect perfect behavior from either. Nor can you pressure them too much for any length of time. Keep training sessions short and positive so that it's associated with a good thing and not something to dread. What works for one handler/dog will probably not work for another because of the differences in the dogs' and handlers' personalities. I've trained a full range of temperaments, from an insanely Alpha male Chesapeake to my current soft-headed lab. It was easy to get frustrated with my knot-head Chessie, and I was young and stupid and made some mistakes. Keep it short and sweet, and make sure that before you expect too much of them in the field or on the leash, that they fully understand basics like sit, stay, and come. And heel. As with anything you teach to anyone, the fundementals have to be pretty well in place before moving on to more difficult tasks. Keep on the basics and don't let "come" be something she views as an option. And it sound as if perhaps she needs to know her place in the pecking order. If she gets pushy around the table, don't be afraid to immediately throw her on her back in a submissive position, hold her down and growl at her as you say "no"! I'm not ashamed to admit that I've done that. Seems to get the point across. It's what happens in a pack. It's your food, not hers, and you are the Alpha. As for a pinch collar, you have my vote as well. She'll come around- be patient and remember that they go though phases. She's challenging because she's smart- not because she's stupid. One day it'll pay off as she does things in the field that leave you smiling and speechless. Good luck and keep us posted.
  16. Schemy Member

    Posts: 65
    Omaha, NE
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    E-collars should be use for correction not praise. Remember this is something that is not supposed to feel good to the dog. Thus giving a command and nicking is counteractive. My advice is to scrap the collar for now and begin anew. My labs are to the point where all that is needed for correction is holding the e-collar control. Don't even need it on them. Every once in a while it comes out for a refresher, but don't need to use it all the time.
  17. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Read The Labrador Shooting Dog by Mike Gould.
    I would never use a shock collar on a dog. If I couldn't get the dog to work with me I'd get rid of it.
    I've been lucky enough to have several great dogs but I've had a couple who were hopeless too.
    It seems like most trainers are extermely passionate about their particular method. I'm not a trainer. Just a guy who's had some great dogs.

    CWUGirl, what don't you like about Richard Wolters? Water Dog is considered by many to be a retriever training classic. Not trying to start an argument, just curious why you don't like Wolters.

    JonB