DON'T BUY CND RODS

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by kamishak steve, May 1, 2012.

  1. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    One interesting experience,

    I have a Burkie 1015, 15' 10 weight from Brian Styskal. This very rod was built for his competition, so it come with 2 tips. One stronger and one normal... if you hold the two tips together side by side, you barely can notice one is thicker than the other one. The weights are so similar, yet, create different actions.

    Can you say the rod tip "mass" make the action change? maybe?, or the stiffness?!
     
  2. seaalki

    seaalki Member

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    " Enough already ! So I say, give back the good old days.
    O silk and gut and rods of cane; no teflon and no urethane.
    It's all so different I fear, you have to be an engineer, to understand these high-tech terms; either that or fish with worms. "

    Steve Raymond
     
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  3. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Rob,

    I respect your knowledge and rod building experience. However, the way you articulate meanings leads me to conclude that since "massive" tip sections with a greater resistance to bending, then the perfect tip section should be made of #4 steel rebar. That definitely isn't right, so instead I think there is a disconnect between what you mean and what you are saying.

    It might help me understand you if you give your definition of "mass" because I think you are using the term in a way that is well outside the bounds of its scientific definition.

    Sg
     
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  4. speyghillie

    speyghillie speyghillie

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    Hi All,
    "After years of speycasting for steelhead I've decided to move on to tenkara & 2 handed skagit tenkara because the math is simpler and speyfishing for steelhead is all but done for these days. Besides tenkara and beer go together with a lot less stuff to pack to the river.. "
    My favorite Quote of the whole thread.
    Anyway i said earlier that all this had been looked at many many years ago, and by the greatest rod designer of the all Alexander Grant, if we think we are going into detail...... here is a quote from him explaining a little about rod design and action of a Grant Vibration rod.

    No rod or anything else requiring vibration movement, seen or unseen, can be made true wanting the knowledge of acoustical application. It is the indispensable power in ruling, regulating, relating and the connecting of parts into a whole. Any d*** thing vibrates and its noise or power is precisely in accordance.

    Cheers Gordon.
     
  5. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

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    I don't speak for Rob but I understand what he is saying and the answer is obvious, it's all relative to the materials used. I've 2 Custom 8/9's, one with a tip that I don't believe has ever broken (appears new & I've not fished it) and one which has broken twice. The second was steeved twice and weighs .1 ounce more on my cheap scale (.6 ounces and .7 ounces) but let me tell you what that 1/10th of an ounce has done for that rod. I can feel it just by wiggling the rods side by side because the repaird rod has added mass/weight due to the repairs...and the repaired rod feels better and casts better, to me.

    Yes, we've been using the term mass and weight interchangeably...they are linearly correlated and therefore interchangeable in this instance. If a rod is made of lighter materials it requires less in terms of added mass/weight to appreciate the difference.

    Edit: Just weighed the tip section of my Burkie 8133-3 and an 8/10 13' 3pc. Daiwa tip on my cheap scale (all tips weighed are from 3pc rods). Both weigh in at .8 ounces. So, that would be 2/10ths of an ounce heavier than the tip of the custom 8/9 as new. I don't know enough about the materials used but suspect the burkie graphite and resin were top of the line when it was built (and I don't know when it was built). Bought the Daiwa used over 15 years ago so it's old technology.
     
  6. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    Just for grins, can you take a blind Pepsi challenge? It'd be interesting to know, as you're the only person I know that has for all intent and purposes, different masses for tips, but supposedly the same tip.... You'd have to do it blind, but the results would be cool? Perhaps a trial of 20 times?
     
  7. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

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    Please note James. I used ounces so the earth's gravity is involved, and different tips...one had been internally sleeved twice at two different places (breaks). I'd agree to the blind test but am shy of pepsi right now.
     
  8. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    I didn't mean it like that. The one tip is sleeved and the other isn't. They were intended to behave the same, but due to repairs are different :)
     
  9. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

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    Yes, the repairs have added weight/mass and stiffened the tip. I might very well run into problems with breakage at the ends of the sleeves but I'm eternally hopeful.
     
  10. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    [​IMG]

    Speak from experience and just for fun gentlemen, :)
    Take a guess what rod should it be in the photo?

    1) Decho 5122
    2) MKS 13678
    3) TCX 7126
    4) Beulah 7133
    ?

    I will post the answer tomorrow.

    Mark
     
  11. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    James- "not to be a dick" was your line if you'll recall. It seemed fitting to borrow it. I did come up with bitchy on my own, though. Curious to know which threads you refer to on speypages? You actually stick out to me as the first to truly protest the notion that some rods load to a degree under their own weight. Not everyone likes that quality in a rod, many times I don't, but most sense it. Anyways, good call, I am boorish at times. Here and there I get a giggle out of it. It's totally juvenile.
     
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  12. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    There are quite a few, I don't have them handy at all.... And yes, it's good to giggle at the silliness of the whole thing. Also, I never protested that rods don't load under their own weight, but rather it's not desirable from an idealized model.
     
  13. inland

    inland Active Member

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    Clay?
     
  14. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    Whatever it is, the tip is too light (tongue firmly in cheek).....
     
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  15. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    James- I'm honored that you've taken the time to read my posts, but I still think you completely exaggerate the degree to which people think I'm nuts.

    Mark- I'm gonna guess the Beulah 7133. If that's the MKS, you've got a decent bend in it. Using your follow through technique?

    My first spey rod was a Sage 9140-4 GIII Brownie. I struggled with it for a while, then I bought a Winston 11' 7wt switch, so that I could at least go back and forth in order to fish. I had a much better time with the winston, in large part, I think, due to the reduced swing weight making the load from the line much more apparent. I'd say the next rod I spent a lot of time with must have been the Loomis Metolius 13'4" which again had pretty light swing weight, giving me great feel for the line. I went on a tear from there buying light rods and enjoyed them quite a bit. I eventually took the 9140 back out and finally got a feel for the rod and was pretty impressed with what it would do. It took me being a better caster to sense what was happening with the line through a somewhat heavier rod. Fast forward a few years, and I'm making an effort to learn to cast a wide variety of rods. One of the characteristics I like to differentiate rods from each other is the whole sway/degree to which they load under their own weight nonsense, as I believe it ultimately reflects in the casting technique that works best with them. I've never had my hands on a copy of Mike Maxwell's book, but I'd read a blurb or two about the "tip heavy" action of his rods and the fact that he used a "body rock" technique that he considered part of true speycasting. I bought a Lamiglas LS1357 and did find that when I was keenly aware of how the rod was moving and flexing on it's own and managed to sync this with what the line was doing, it was an amazingly capable rod, and the tip heavy feel basically disappeared. If you were out of sync with the rod you could probably break your own arm trying to force it to do what you wanted. The rod almost felt tuned to do a certain thing, and if you made it do that thing, the line just sailed, and it never failed to move whatever was attached. Very different feel than my more "modern" rods.
     
  16. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    well for one the Sage 9140 brownie well it's a very poor rod,, it folds under it's own weight and is a poor example of what I would call a full flexing heavy tipped rod...

    Now lets get something straight.. a tip that is strong is also going to be heavy.. there is no way around it because the way a tip is made stronger is by putting more graphite into it thus adding weight... the problem with the sage 9140 is that the bottom end of the rod has no guts... though not a great rod the St croix Imperial 9140 of the same vintage was a much better rod...

    the purpose of a tip on a spey rod ( by tip i mean the top half of the rod) is to push the load down into the butt of the rod so that a larger amount of graphite can be used to generate energy.


    In the picture posted above.... notice that the tip of the rod is very nearly straight! the load has been pushed down into the lower portion of the rod.... that generates a lot more energy than a rod where only the tip flexes...
     
  17. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    True that the brownies are pretty soft, but I had my good moments with it. My first effort, though, was with a SA XLT Spey cut back with a 15' type 6 sink tip and not a single casting lesson or moment spent with another person with a spey rod. I'd never even seen a person cast a 2-hander. Talk about a disaster...
     
  18. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    thanks for chipped in and play gentlemen... I am sure the answer will surprise many people.

    Here it is: SAGE TCX 7126 a.k.a The Death Star. if you cast one, you know how light it is, yet, powerful enough to handle T17, I think James got a closest answer! :) Mark

    Note to Trevor, it was regular underhand cast,high stop.

    Another semi-loaded photo

    [​IMG]

    Full loaded
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Wadecalvin

    Wadecalvin Member

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    TCX 7126
     
  20. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

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    What is it lined with? Certainly a middle of the road 7wt. in grains or whatever. Correct? And, are you fishing or trying to make a point with those pics?

    Anyone can reproduce that by overlineing a rod.

    Oops, question should go to yuhina, not Wadecalvin.
     

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