Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by kamishak steve, May 1, 2012.

  1. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member


    Just let you know I never overlining any rod. In fact, this is "light lining" the TCX to create a crispy feel. Go cast a TCX 7126 and you will understand what I mean. We have stated the "line momentum" play a major role on the rod load through out the whole thread (not the rod tip mass).

    What is my point to post this rod action photo? The point being ...Don't just wiggle a rod to test the rod action, cast a rod with a line to determine the action. You will be surprised how many "tip too light" rods actually are deep flex action.

    BTW,("Semi-loaded" photo is used to show you how the rod bend with a small friction of line momentum)

    Just for fun, take a guess what line weight I was using for this TCX 7126?

    1) 320 grain

    2) 430 grain

    3) 480 grain

    4) 600 grain


    fredaevans likes this.
  2. Verne

    Verne Member

    You can make a rod bend like that without a line if you swing it back and forth hard enough.
    Klickrolf likes this.
  3. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

    Yeah, I suppose you can, but wouldn't it require more sweat from one's brow to fish like that? When lined I don't think you can get the energy back out through those light tips, you can get the energy in but you can't deliver as much back out on the delivery.
  4. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

    here is the problem manufacturers know more about their products than customers do.... many rods can safely be overlined while others cannot.. it is one thing to add a few grains to accentuate the action of a rod it is another thing altogether to change the action of a rod by overlining it.. if you want a rod that will cast a heavier line buy a heavier rod... the notion that it's ok for someone to buy a rod and then lead it to suit their preference is wrong. load it do the manufacturers recommendation or make no complaints when the product fails...

    some rods are designed to cast off the tip adding more grains to the line in order to make the rod load deeper is a BAD idea what happens when you do that is very little of the extra load is transferred deeper into the rod but the top end of the rod becomes overstressed.

    there is more to the equation than how you want the rod to feel..until you understand the structural integrity of a rod you shouldn't presume to know more than the manufacturer.
  5. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Interesting. The Poul Bock article from the GGAC suggest that with respect to Skagit, this isn't the case. His favorite line setup for the T&T 1307 is apparently a RIO 650 skagit! Personally I am more inclined to your beliefs, but there are others that apparently don't follow the same ideas!
  6. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    The answer is 1) 320 grain on TCX 7126.
    Images were screenshots captured from the video above.
    Overlining?! Okay, I will use a lighter line next time! :p
  7. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

    Back before anyone figured out grain weights and stuff we used the old formula of 3 to 3.5 times the length of the rod minus the tip length for bellies. You would play with the length and the weight of level line used to make the belly (12 wt, 14 wt, 16 wt) until you found the sweet spot. If the rod broke during this process, you didn't buy that rod again. If the rod didn't perform the way you wanted it to, again, you didn't buy that rod anymore. Pretty simple. During this time I don't remember many rods breaking because they were stressed. I do remember rods getting passed from one guy to another because they didn't fit a particular person's casting style. Again, sure seemed simple back then.
    yuhina and James Mello like this.
  8. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

    Interesting, Kerry. Cooperation and trading, it's always been a hallmark of swingers :).

    Go Sox,
  9. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    I wished there were multiple likes... That's awesome Kerry.
  10. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    what happened if two guys wanted the same rod.... now that's just starting to sound......
  11. Flyborg

    Flyborg Active Member

    You're going to have a hard time breaking a well made rod just from overlining it, even by quite a bit. Your performance should go to crap before the rod breaks.

    As to heavy tips--it requires more energy to move them. Simple physics. I personally prefer to use as little energy as possible.

    Most of this discussion is moot. The only common quantifiable factor involved in rod design between the manufacturers is the actual weight of the line it's intended to throw, and even that gets fuzzy with line makers ignoring AFTMA standards. Most rod manufacturers can't even agree on the definition of power and action between themselves. Of the many designers I know, not a one has ever used a word like mass or energy to describe a rod. Many of them still don't even use deflection boards, opting for the "shake and feel" in early design followed up with an actual cast later.

    The fact that many well respected rod designers prefer lighter tips is merely evident that there is no one true course when it comes to rod design. Why? Because just like rods, we're all built differently. Our muscles respond differently, our brains work different, and even our nether counterweights all weigh in at different amounts. That's the reason a good fly casting instructor doesn't teach everyone the same way--they look at how you're built, how you move the rod, and teach you fly casting in the manner it best fits you.

    So, as much as I enjoy the mental masturbation olympics, it merely illustrates why so many people look at spey guys like they're clown midgets at a gay pride parade. The human portion of the rod casting equation is a much bigger factor, and quite frankly, none of the fish give a fuck. You can find the right line and rod combo that suits you, but getting dogmatic about it and expecting it to be right for everyone is simply sophomoric.
    Brian Thomas likes this.
  12. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Totally funny comments. I don't think anyone said there was a single action of rod :) As for clown midgets, I'd prefer to think of myself as a diminutive mime at the library.... in the back.... with your mom.....

    How's that for sophmoric??? :)
  13. Flyborg

    Flyborg Active Member

    Fucking awesome :)
  14. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Words! Flyborg... I always find myself seeking wisdom from this board, either educational or entertaining... found both in your post! Thank you! Sir : )

  15. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

    James- I messaged you asking for some links a few days ago. Are you going to reply?
  16. fredaevans

    fredaevans Active Member

    Yup. How a rod flex's when you're just 'whipping' it back and forth is very different that the feel you get with a line-load. Think 'sustained loading' on the rod blank.

    "Overlining?! Okay, I will use a lighter line next time!" (320 grain short Scandi head on the 7126) Reason the line works is the grains, thought low, are in a very compact line head.
  17. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

    performance suffers and then people try to force it to work anyway then the rod breaks... I'll be honest this is not near as common as it was 10 years ago due in large part to advances in lines..

    It was particularly prevalent back in the days of long bellies such as the original xlt's... you can't go up in grains so that the rod will load well at short range and then still expect the rod to hold up with an extra 150 grains with the whole belly out...
  18. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

    Been swamped as of late....
  19. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

    Fished a compact skagit head this evening, 630gr. with a 14' "Extra Super Fast sinking" polyleader on an old 12.5' 8/9 rod. Didn't use the CND custom but it doesn't matter. Clearly found that it takes "mass to turn over mass" so... the physics question has satisfyingly been answered. Whether the rod tip or the line or the combination of the two working together. Mass is required to turn over mass.
  20. SSPey

    SSPey Member

    Not strictly speaking. You can substitute momentum for mass (mass X velocity) by adding line speed. For years I fished salt with a 9 wt line and a piece of LC-13 looped to the end, and it turned over ... but mass works better, especially at distance where line speed is lost and you're relying on the line's taper to complete turnover

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