Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by kamishak steve, May 1, 2012.
I have looked and did not see if you mentioned that you purchased the rod new or use.
+1 SS...you can underline and spank the rod all day, works fine with dry feet and for overheading. But in steelhead fishing situations where one has to actually turn flies over standing waist deep, lining the rod so that it loads without spanking it is better for most casters who want to achieve fishable distance with minimal effort.
All due respect,
Simple question, could you spey cast this awesome saltwater line?
Comparing overhead casting and spey casting is hard...
If you guys are interested in casting mechanic and line design, we should start out another new thread, not to hijack this thread...
Mark, I am guessing that you have never heard of the Accelerator ... with enough line speed it is possible for a lighter line to turn over a heavier one. I am not saying that it is desirable, but it is possible.
For what it is worth, I have spliced up more spey lines from scratch than you can imagine, and was splicing together longbellies and skagits and everything in between when the only commercially available lines in this country were the ACCELERATOR, Windcutter, and SA Mastery
...but putting fresh orange juice on sliced apples does help delay browning, which is something to keep in mind.
Except for the running line the diagram above looks like a skagit head
In the 'old' days as Steve calls it we would have taken 2 of those lines, one heavier than other chop of the front taper and splice them together and leave the rear taper of the lighter line as the new front taper and chop the the rear taper of the heavy back line until it cast well.
Revelation, at least for me! Some of us are assuming fishing while the others assume casting!! All my posts assumed fishing...I never really thought about standing with dry feet and switch-casting. Fishing while crotch deep means you've just lost over 3' of rod length (say 33" inseam with boots on and 6" high bank = 39", not to mention the extra body language). That makes a huge difference while casting. You can't judge a rod's "fishability" while you're casting from the grass...well, maybe you can but getting aggressive is easy on the bank. It's much different crotch deep, let alone waist deep.
accidentally edit it out... all the info is gone,
Not trying to get your hackle up.... Steve
My apology, too much wine and too many flies buzzing in the house.
Edit the wording...
If my memory serve me right, I have cast one and thought it was ok. I like the windcutter better...
For the record, I have put a link about the accelerator and explain a little bit of my view... but I accidentally delete it... now only the link... here. http://www.letsflyfish.com/rioaccelerator.htm
the forcing and "tuck feel in the article is spot on. Why bother to make this post? I just want to point out the difference between the magnum taper (or the LC 13 trick) and the accelerator. Depending on the weight distribution along the balance point and how much it shift, at certain point, the heavy concentrated front weight will impair a regular spey casting.
The hinges and swelling is old old school Mike Maxwell stuff.
I thought this was about someone being pissed off about CND rods. Now we're talking line splicing? Come on guys, start a new thread!
It also means you are standing right in the middle of the fish................
this last winter on the Kow I was stuck in crotch deep water with bushes tickling my ass... wishing for a decent bar to fish from... all winter.
But your point is well taken, Kerry. Spey fishers are known for overcasting and wading where the fish are LOL.
my thought had to do with lining a rod in such a way that the rod, not the caster, is doing most of the work. I have underlined the bejeebers out of all my rods just for fun on occasion, and you can get quite a tight loop (for a little ways) but for actual fishing under actual conditions, I don't recommend it. I like letting the rod do the work, but then again I'm a lazy guy.
CND rods have a reputation for being practically self-casting when lined properly, and their actions lend themselves to a more relaxed stroke while still generating a lot of power. I can't imagine enjoying an underlined CND.
many CND rods have such a wide grain window that the concept of "underlining" will mean different things to different people
There is no doubt that it'll change casting characteristics, but once in flight, the line has no idea that it was speycast or overhead cast. At that point it is just flying based on (1) taper, (2) line speed, and (3) resistance from the running line.
Can you tell us how a reverse taper with weight at the front impairs casting, based on your experience? I've spey and overhead cast lines like this, and in both cases the reverse taper magnifies a basic principle of line design (taper steepness shifts) used to stall turnover and provide longer flight time before dumping. The CND lines have a pretty lengthy flat spot towards the front that does exactly that. A reverse taper accentuates it even more. You may find it fun to play around with a micrometer / calipers and spend a few years splicing up lines, it is very educational. What's more, it doesn't rely on total speculation like the bulk of this thread talking about "weightless rods" and similar constructs. Reverse taper lines give VERY abrupt and powerful turnover at the end, if they turn over at all, which is the trick of a well designed vs poorly designed line.
if you have a good rod that is properly lined the rod should be doing the work anyway it shouldn't require a specific type of line... I think a lot of this comes about for one of two reasons
1. people are trying to make poor rods cast well ( futile in my opinion)
2. people are trying to get the last 5% out of their ability with a particular rod.
A good rod will cast skagit, scandi long belly and anything in between within it's appropriate line designation.. if your rod does not do that then you do not have a good rod.
if you are trying to get the last 5% out of a rod with your ability then you are most likely splitting hairs
Yes, I can. But I like to start a new thread as Speyfisher suggested.
As you mentioned CND here, my previous accidentally deleted information is about CND GPS lines... (What a coincidence you also mentioned it again, sadly, I don't have too much energy left to write another one...)
When discuss reverse taper, I assume you are talking about shooting head here, because your first post in this thread was comment on my shooting head cast. (also your LC 13 example). Not going into detail, the reason Accelerator worked is because the majority of weight still on the "head", the final "reverse DT swelling" is just a small portion of weight which is not going to impair the spey D loop dynamic (I am sure you know all of those...)
Simple experiment for people who interested in reverse taper (magnum taper)
1) Try to spey cast a magnum taper saltwater line, and report back where the anchor should land in order to make a cast, I predict your anchor will be very different than a regular spey cast. (and Yes, I have done that). The more you resemble the overhead cast, the much easier it will make it "work". And this is contradict to the reason Steve started with this discussion (make it easier to cast by looping LC 13)
2) Try to reverse scandi head and do a regular spey cast again. In saltwater overhead casting, a lot of people simply flip their scandi line, but if someone can show me video how to spey cast a reversed scandi head. I will be all eared.
BTW, good suggestions on the splicing line practice. Just in case people are wondering... I too have been splicing lines and own a very nice set of calipers and scales... I agree with you, it's fun and educational!
Final note: BUY CND RODS and LINES. although snake river outfitters no longer carrying CND products, Lee is one of the kind gentleman. worth to see him in the film...search vimeo.com SPOOLEDTV "river of no return"
Mark, do you really want to start a new thread, or go on with more of the same? The proof is above.
Reversing a scandi head, or spey casting a line designed for single handing, has little relevance to my point of casting a line with a reverse taper at the delivery end.
Let me remind you - the issue that I disagreed with is that it takes MASS to turn over MASS. Please don't drag this into other issues. MASS is static, it can't turn over over anything! It takes MOMENTUM to turn over a line, which incorporates VELOCITY which the angler can control. There seems to be pathological need to pull threads into other directions
SSpey, you missed the fishing assumption. Certainly I don't cast without moving the line and mass adds to the equation...moving mass should be assumed. Generating momentum is what we do and more mass means more momentum, if the rod can handle it. If not it's a poor rod design or it's not lined correctly. There is no static mass while speycasting so why bring that up?
I didn't miss it at all. I spent years practicing to develop technique, but I am no pond caster. I fish steelhead every week of the year.
Once you're rigged for a day of fishing, the MASS part of momentum is fixed. At that point, the thing that varies is VELOCITY, which you control, cast after cast.
Notice how casting instructors talk about line speed (=velocity)? Control it well, and you'll get your line through that headwind, and get more distance with less effort. All with the same MASS.
Thank you! I knew I had to be doing something right.
No dispute here...and each step down likely requires some adjustment as we manage the mass. A little more speed or a little less, each fishing cast has it's own challenge. Casting for casting doesn't.
Kamishak - although I have not been able to read and process this whole thread I felt compelled to respond (against my better judgement) because you mentioned my name explicitly, and incorrectly as a dealer. During the 18-24 mos I worked for CND, I did distribution, warehousing, dealer sales, warranty, promotion, window-washing, etc - but was NEVER a dealer.
So if you did not purchase from a shop then you might have gotten a professional discount, up to half price, granted to noteworthy practitioners to help promote the brand. I was never involved with manufacturing, and any breakage issues were beyond my control. Although I had left almost CND 7 years before your post, I suspect the discontinuance of the Custom series had something to do with fragility although I can not say for sure.
Personally, I still really enjoy the Specialists and Solstice rods I still own and have seen on Speypages that they have continued to innovate with new rod models and Spey lines that broke new ground (e.g. GPS). I wouldn't hesitate to try more if the chance came up although I still have more fly rods if you count my single-handers for trout, bonefish, stripers, etc... than my girlfriend has shoes