DON'T BUY CND RODS

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by kamishak steve, May 1, 2012.

  1. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    KS,

    Yeah, I think Nobuo isn't offering the same upgrade deal I and others got after our Customs broke repeatedly. I think I paid the price difference between my Custom and the Solstice (a little over $100) after the Custom was discontinued. At first I wasn't totally enthused because I really liked the Custom, and it was more money out of pocket, but it didn't take long to fall in love with the Solstice, and I never gave it another thought. I made a mistake above regarding my 8/9, it's an Expert model, not Custom. I had the Custom 7/8, which was very popular, but everyone I know who had it, except one person, had them break multiple times.

    At least you got 7 years out of your Custom, but I think Nobuo should give you a better break on an upgrade since the Custom line had so many problems.

    Sg
     
  2. kamishak steve

    kamishak steve Active Member

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    The rod they are offering me is far from half off. The former distributor is offering the same rod for 440 bucks. 317 is far from half of 440. I had to haggle with the guy to get that price. He initially insisted that 350 bucks was the lowest he would go.
    I didn't fish it hard, and it broke because of what is now a widely known manufacturer defect. More than half the people I've spoken with that had the same rod had the same experience. For a defective product, the warranty should replace the item for free.
    if I buy something with a warranty, I expect that warranty to mean something, not to be at the whim of the owner of the business. I think a manufacturer has a responsibility to uphold those warranties, american distributor or not. How would you like it if the next time you broke your sage, they told you they wouldn't repair or replace it, but instead offer you an 'upgrade' at 75 % percent of retail for their most expensive model. To me that's bad business...
     
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  3. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    rod used for 7 years that is not a manufacturer defect. manufacturer defect will show up immediately or nearly so. I won't speak to the warranty service . However building a new tip would be easy to do, maybe not an exact match but certainly close and again better than the garbage can. probably cost around a hundred bucks though...

    PM me if you are interested
     
  4. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    It's too bad that the customs had such a problem with breakage. You never hear anyone complain about how they cast, though. I have an 8/9 custom, and I've just decided to regard it as a 7/8, an interpretation the upper half of the rod somewhat supports. I wish CND could find some way to make it economic to operate in the states & canada. Sad to see these kinds of troubles. I don't imagine selling spey rods is the easiest way to make a buck.

    It's pretty cool that there is a shop with the talent and willingness to reverse engineer a tip from another manufacturers rod. I'd have to seriously think about Rob's offer. I don't know if you own any Burkies or have had any interaction with them before, but they are great to work with.
     
  5. kamishak steve

    kamishak steve Active Member

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    The rod had broken 2 other times before in the exact same spot. Both by casting. Both without any damage, abuse or hit with a fly. That is definitely a manufacture issue. After speaking with many other people on this site and others, it was typical of the rod. Apparently the rods were not very well field tested and one of the reasons for their discontinue was because of breakage/warranty issues.
     
  6. kamishak steve

    kamishak steve Active Member

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    This terrible experience was a blessing in disguise. I have no money, but I'm working with R.B. Meiser to create a replacement. What a cool dude...
     
  7. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Glad to hear you have a Meiser option in the works. Pretty cool to learn about a possible Burkie option from Rob too, cuz that Custom 7/8 surely was the bees knees for casting when it wasn't breaking.

    Sg
     
  8. shotgunner

    shotgunner Anywhere ~ Anytime

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  9. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    That is very cool KS...and your right, he is a very cool guy...Rob too for stepping up...Now you won't get a lifetime warranty with their rods but you might make lifetime friendships....
    Pretty good stuff..
     
  10. kamishak steve

    kamishak steve Active Member

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    That's the same thing I filled out!!!!!
     
  11. ChrisC

    ChrisC Member

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    Sorry about to hear about your situation. Unfortunately, companies who are on the fringe of viability are often the first to not keep commitments. Given the number of tackle companies that were around 10 years ago but not around today, it is something that I keep in mind in making my tackle purchases.
     
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  12. Nooksack Mac

    Nooksack Mac Active Member

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    The current system of adding a large premium into the retail price of a fly rod in order to pay for possible future "free" warranty services gives me pause. It's not wrong, necessarily; in fact, it may be the best compromise for a situation of conflicting values. But there's an inherent paradox in the fact that fly rods are brittle, hollow tools designed for a vigorous, risky outdoor sport. Most of my favorite fly and spey rods couldn't be replaced or repaired. And I have broken a few fly rods over the years. It hurts, but it goes with the territory. We shouldn't ask too much of the warranty system, even though many of us do. (Have you ever turned down an undeserved warranty replacement of fly tackle that you broke through your own fault?)

    Fly rods are hostages to fortune. Accept it. Would you refuse to buy a desirable Paul Young or Les Peak rod at a good price because it's not under warranty?
     
  13. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    you make a couple very valid points... In reality graphite is a poor material for how we abuse it.. it is not designed to be bumped around and hit against rocks bent to it's maximum ever time we get snagged.... One of my favorite pastimes is watching rod breakage videos on you tube i am always amazed how much abuse the rod takes before it breaks... It is a great material and makes great fly rods just graphite and the outdoors are not a great combination... now mart of the problem exists because of marketing and customer demand for lighter and lighter rods.. so there is blame to be spread all over the place..

    One thing however that is not correct at least not in the company that i work for is that the cost of repairing a rod is already figured into the original price of the rod. simple matter of fact the companies that still make rods in America would be in the red instantly if they lowered the price of their products and would be out of business within months. Simple fact is that it costs a LOT of money to produce high quality fly rods. The process is too labor intensive to do quickly and cheaply and do it right.
     
  14. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

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    I can't help wondering why two handed rods have to become lighter and lighter. I understand the technology part but the risks assumed by the fisherman and the manufacturer don't add up for me. I'll gladly pay more for a rod that I"m confident won't break (while casting) and leave me stranded. I think the chase for lighter gear is a recipe for disaster...or certainly can ruin an expensive fishing trip.
     
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  15. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    I completely agree...
     
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  16. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    It really isn't any different than any other fly rod improvement over time. I seriously doubt that anyone would really like to swing a 15' fiberglass rod, regardless of how durable. I however would love to be able to swing a 13' rod with enough power to stop a King without having to have something that resembles a greenheart rod of yesteryear.
     
  17. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

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    Yeah, I wouldn't want to swing a greenheart for any length of time... I was trying to suggest when we get close to the edge (technological & physical edge) we are taking a risk and I'm not sure that risk is justified or justifiable. My interest in CND rods came specifically from the designer and his relationship with Daiwa UK. I've a 13' 8/10 Daiwa that weighs 9.3 ounces, the CND Custom 8/9 weighs 8.8 ounces, the difference is .5 ounces...and we're talking two handers here. I've fished the Daiwa over 15 years and have never feared breaking it, broke the CND twice within the first 3 months. It's a great casting rod but only marginally better than the Daiwa. For my purposes I'll go back to the Daiwa because half an ounce is minimal...and I don't worry about overloading it. It's old graphite technology but an excellent casting rod nonetheless.

    One more thing. Doesn't it take mass to turn over mass? lighter tips that are more prone to breakage are also less able to transfer energy deeper into the blank and therefore less able to release that energy...something to think about. Any physics experts out there? Am I wrong about this?
     
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  18. kamishak steve

    kamishak steve Active Member

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    [quote="One more thing. Doesn't it take mass to turn over mass? lighter tips that are more prone to breakage are also less able to transfer energy deeper into the blank and therefore less able to release that energy...something to think about. Any physics experts out there? Am I wrong about this?[/quote]

    In the case of fly rods, you're actually dealing with the restorative constant sort of like a k value in Force=k*displacement, to snap the rod back into shape. The greater the restorative force, the faster the rod is moving back to its original position from a flexed position. More restorative force=more speed snapping back to shape=more line speed. Ultimately that speed is transferred from the rod to the line, which is what carries it through the air. The k value is specific to the material, (why we see such expensive graphite), mass doesn't really factor in.

    Not a physics expert, but thought i would weigh in on that one a little bit...
     
  19. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    mass actually does factor in on a relative basis concerning the strength of the tip of the rod.. the more material you use to build a rod the more potential stored power the rod will have..

    I don't know anything about physics I do however know a lot about rods and casting them, what works and what does not. what does not work is a light tipped fast action rod, however that's how nearly the whole spey industry is moving they can have it..

    what does work is strong tipped deepish loading rods that recover quickly.. rods that only flex in the tip only have stored energy in the tip where there is very little material to store energy therefore there is very little energy stored to put into the cast.

    If a physicist would disagree then i would have to say that the laws of physics do not apply to fly casting and that they are wrong.

    that's just me being an absolutist because i am right.:)

    on another note I went into Cabelas last week i picked up and shook some winstons, some sages some loomis and cabelas rods they were all fast in the butt and light in the tip.. had i been blindfolded i would not have been able to tell them apart...
     
  20. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    Mass isn't the thing, once again the relative strength of the material is what matters and the K constant of the material. That's why equations related to spring constants only us K (which by definition should account for K), rather than some constant + mass.

    Also, a light tipped fast action rod works great for short light heads (aka Scandi), but does bumpkis when moving to massive long bellies and such. Hence the LeCie is one of the crispest Skandi rods around, and is a complete pig when trying to line with a long belly.
     

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