Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by kamishak steve, May 1, 2012.

  1. Recovery speed is how fast it goes from bent to straight, which tells you something about what it'll impart to the line. Dampening is how much it flops around after unloading.
  2. Not true. It takes energy to create those waves, and those waves take time to straighten out. Hence those waves are something that does affect how fast something gets there. In addition, if you have a rod that wants to recover in an oval for instance, those waves will end up causing the line to oval, hence affecting accuracy. That's why having a bent tip really sucks to cast with....

  3. i when i talk about recovery I am talking about the speed at which the rod goes from being loaded to being unloaded during the loading and the unloading stroke only. when you are 1 forming your dee loop and 2 when you you make your forward cast.

    in general the faster the rod unloads the more energy it's going to put into the line I say in general because it is possible for a rod to unload so fast that the angler has a difficulty timing his casting

    for me a rod that loads up slowly and unloads quickly is the most comfortable. these tend to be rods that have strong tips and that load down into the top of the butt section but recover form being loaded very quickly. keep in mind that rods can be deep loading and still recover quickly
  4. Believe I mis-understood the "recovery" concept, thanks for straightening me out.
  5. Rob,

    It has been a few days after you posted this challenge, I guess people are a little bit shy from casting mechanics... so for good discussion's sake. I will wade in and give the forum some of my observations in this confusion.

    The major confusion came from "strong tip" and "massive tip". They are not interchangeable terms. "Strong" versus "Massive/ heavy" . Two different things.

    You probably already know...
    "Strong" is the unit we use to describe the material's "rigidness", the property against the outside forces. Strong structure, strong frame etc...titanium frame is "strong" but really "light". For a fly rod, strong means the stiffness. For example: Same taper design, 5 weight versus 8 weight. 8 weight are stronger, stiffer. Nono graphite is "stronger" and "lighter" than fiberglass.

    "Massive" is the unit of describing material's "weight", more mass, heavier. bamboo and fiberglass material are "heavier" than graphite.

    In short conclusion, strong tip is good, massive tip is bad (see explanation below).

    So when we mentioned "strong tip", we are really focus on the taper design, the action. strong tip/soft butt; strong tip/ strong butt etc... We have to avoid the term - mass, or weight. see Tim's video again.

    Second, (the issue of massive tip)
    You said "Massive" tip is good, because heavy tip "help" load the rod deeper. I said "Massive" tip is bad, because they dampen the rod recovery.

    So what is my explanation?

    Heavy tip sure will make the rod load deeper if you use the same acceleration to propel the forward stroke. However, those deeper load energy (extra energy) also "need to be shared" by the heavier tip (extra weight), because the extra weight of the rod tip is IN THE SYSTEM (in the rod, stay with the rod). So at the end the momentum from the line/head system did not benefit from your heavy tip and deeper load. Again, because of the extra load energy is shared between heavy tip and the line system. (BTW, all the casting energy all coming from our two hands leveraging the rod, deeper bended rod has more stored energy and it is all come from this ONLY source - acceleration of the rod butt section against the rod tip and line system).

    Most people feel appealing to cast the strong tip / soft butt action (regressive taper); for example: rods like Meiser MKS, Dredger, Echo Decho and Beulah platinum. The reason for that is because those rods are easier to "time" during the casting stroke, more tolerant for casting error deviation. more relax in stroke. Myself included, I prefer those rods for skagit works.

    Some people feel casting strong tip/ strong butt action rods on skagit heads is not easy and more tiresome. (progressive taper); for example: T&T, Guideline LecCie. They feel they need to use more push, or punch action to make it work. This is not because the rod are bad, this is because the quick load make the casting tempo quicker, make the casting timing narrower and sharper. Most of the people don't have the skill to make it work, or can't make it work consistence. The extra push from the top hand is the result of compensating act from "off timing" during the casting stroke.

  6. I have to respect what Rob is saying, if for no other reason he is immersed in the building of rods. E=MC(squared)? ? Energy= mass multiplied by velocity squared. Velocity, however you wand to describe it, is squared first them multiplied by the mass. That's the way math works. So velocity is going to jack the numbers up much faster then mass. All this aside, I think Ed said it best. He doesn't know beans about physics, rod design, or anything else. But what feels good and works for him is what matters at the end of the day. And what feels great to one person may feel entirely different to the next.
  7. I would say my 8 wt Beulah Platinum has a stronger-ish tip, But the Burkie 8139 has a massive tip.
  8. Acutally the forumula for Kenetic energy is mx^2 / 2. The E=MC^2 is for general relativity and is significantly different.
  9. Where does momentum work into this spring lever?
  10. Momentum is the thing that loads the spring one way or another. In a lot of standard physics tests, they don't dynamically load the spring, but instead make the assumption that the spring is statically compressed. In the cast of the rod, the momentum is coming from the line, as well as the tip....
  11. What is it, since momentum is constant unless acted upon (Newton's 2nd law) it is p=mv, differentiated from force, F=ma. This is only one of the things that makes casting analysis hard for me, because incorporating rate of change in casting dynamics makes me dizzy. No static loading in Spey casting.
  12. Was`nt this thread about CND rods once upon a time ?
    fisshman26 likes this.
  13. Could be.... But that was long ago.....
  14. Forced objects all has momentum; object has momentum not necessary is receiving force.
    for analogy; all salmon are fish, but not all fish are salmon!

    The difference between momentum and force is acceleration.
  15. Now we just need an F1 physicist...

    Hmmm... maybe not. While I do find magical weightless rods, ideal springs, and physics equations mildly interesting, there's a "massive" risk of oversimplifying the dynamics of casting by trying to reduce it to a few letters and an equal sign. I'm likely in the minority here, but I believe the most productive way to discuss tapers is simply to compare notes on rods we have cast, rods that actually exist, with an effort to qualify the statements made and provide some context. For my part, I enjoy a wide variety of spey rods, so I don't really have anything to prove here, although I would encourage people to buy CND rods, as I think they are great, but that's a different subject, maybe a different thread.

    I would like to hear peoples thoughts on what a "strong tip" is. I feel I've run into 2 types of strong tips, those that simply start strong and those that firm up very quickly. The former tends to tolerate heavy loads without flinching, while the latter tends to make "off the tip" casts better. The Lamiglas LS 1357 would be my #1 example of the first, but I'm inclined to say that the Dechos fit this profile too, and have certainly enjoyed wider distribution. My 12'6" 7/8 MKS would be a good example of a tip that firms up very quickly, though it's starting strength is by no means insubstantial. Thoughts on strong tips?
  16. I like them, the ones that start strong and stay there!! But I am lazy.
  17. Since Steve brought up the dynamic load and static load... I will just provide some examples here to help people understand why "acceleration" play the key difference. pay attention to the acceleration.

    Keep accelerating a object will increase it's momentum, increased momentum means increased rod load.

    For example, Keep accelerating a car, will increase it's speed. so over the positive accelerating course, the car GAIN momentum. This is dynamic momentum (either accelerating or decelerating). Ideally, a car cruise at "a constant speed v", the momentum STAY the same. no gain, no lost. This is the static momentum. mv.

    Why knowing this will help casting? You want to increase rod load? sure, two ways.
    put a "heavier" line or "accelerate" rod butt faster, or do both.

    Why dynamic momentum?
    keep in mind, fly rod is a spring. When spring is loaded, it will unload immediately. The only way to keep them "loaded" during the forward stroke is to use force, to keep INCREASE it's relative momentum, keep ACCELERATING, until your rod reach the fire position. People think smooth regressive rod don't need to accelerating during the forward stroke. Wrong. In the LINEAR casting stroke. You need a steady acceleration during the forward stoke to hold the rod load. (small acceleration is still an acceleration). Otherwise the rod will unload itself during the forward stroke.

    A special dynamic momentum..
    Ed Ward's Circular Motion Casting style, uses angular momentum to load the rod. He CAN use constant speed during the CIRCULAR motion (the sweep process) and still hold the rod load, because constant circular motion immediately bearing the angular acceleration ( a vector toward casting center). That is the reason, he can use constant sweep speed to hold the rod load and divert the load to the final firing position. This concept set his casting style into a complete different level. People should appreciate his unique contribution to our community. IMO.

    Science not necessary will help you to catch more fish, but it will solve some puzzles and confusions; and maybe will improve your casting mechanics every once of a while.

  18. Trevor,

    That's the way rods are really designed - by iterative tinkering (even tho Orvis used an advertising spoof years ago that their rods were "computer" designed). Clearly there is nothing wrong with that technique, but some of us were born analytical and can't help ourselves. So we look for the mechanical and physical attributes that help explain what goes on during casting.

    Qualifying attributes makes for good conversation (and advertising hype like the Sage ONE, wherein your arm becomes one with the rod). However, for the analytical - see any of Yuhina's posts - quantifying the differences is the key to understanding differences. And as near as I can tell, it's just complex enough to lie slightly beyond the level of competence of everyone who joins the discussion. It's interesting that the "contemplative" man's recreation involves arithmetic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, and many of the fundamental laws of physics. And I'll speculate that there is some sophisticated organic chemistry in developing ever more sophisticated graphite fabrics and resins that enhance all the desirable attributes.

    BTW, it's OK to mention CND rods, cuz this is the CND rod thread. But I blame the thread hijack on Rob Allen cuz he generated the discussion about tips, i.e., strong, stiff, more mass, less mass. And this is what led us to discuss (as best we can) the mathematical and physical attributes that create the desirable tip action attributes. Pretty clear now that it isn't just increased mass, since that would mean Burkheimer rods would use steel rebar or some such for tip sections. Since Burkheimer uses high tests graphite materials too, it's about which grade of graphite fabric, how many wraps around the mandrel, and the all important taper to get a tip that loads just as the designer - and caster - want it to. Fun stuff.

    yuhina likes this.
  19. Your advice will be easy to I've never even heard of CND. Bummer about your rod, hopefully they will reconsider and provide a reasonable level of support. I suppose nothing is truly a lifetime warranty, given the possibility of companies going out of business, mergers, etc. -- all the more reason to stay with the big names with long history of outstanding support. Good luck.
  20. Well for the folks here, I don't think any of us have the skills (math, materials engineering, etc...) to do this. BUT, consider the expense and sophistication of something like an aircraft wing, and that they can't always be "prototyped". In those cases, they can be modeled and must be in order to move forward to production. Even though a spey cast is an involved procedure, I would believe that lots of computer modeling can be done to get things quite a bit of the way along. This may not be the cast though, as I understand that a lot of those kinds of simulators are multi million dollar pieces of software.

    In no way shape or form did I intend to say the simple numbers would produce a good rod. Rods are about the material, the taper, the manufacturing, and the appearance. Even if you could create an idealized rod out of the current materials, it may not meet the "feel" or "aesthetics" that a person would want.

    But given a particular material, it would seem that great designers (Burkie, Meiser, Loomis, Rajeff, etc...) could then use experience and intuition to mold those materials into a better, sleeker rod. Truthfully I suspect that the new resin graphite combo's are things that all new developers are looking at, even most of the smaller boutique vendors.

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