Felt Sole Bans

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Bill Aubrey, Mar 20, 2012.

  1. Thats simple, states and federal agencies don't want to spend what little money there is for new equipment on new waders.
  2. Nor do they want to spend the time and money on decon procedures for their boots, waders, nets, and boats and motors. It has a major effect on the amount of research and survey work that can be accomplished.
  3. Isaacfab:
    The paper deals with a stream in S. Dakota which I have read. It is a "montane" stream, not a Montana stream.
    The problem is, the researchers have used the data tomislead you into thinking the macroinvertebrates have declined. Here is an example of how to do that:
    Before Didymo: 500 Ephemeroptera 50 Diptera (Chironomids)
    or 90.9% Ephemeroptera and 9.1% Diptera
    After Didymo: 510 Ephemeroptera 500 Diptera
    or 50.5% Ephemeroptera and 49.5% Diptera
    So not only did the total numbers of invertebrates increase after Didymo, but the number of Ephemeroptera actually increased also even though their percentage in the sample dropped from 90.9% to 50.5%.
    By using percentages the researchers made you believe that the numbers of Ephemeroptera dropped drastically even though they actually increased!

    This kind of crap occurs in fishery research all the time. I know. I was Director of a Fishery Research Laboratory for a number of years. If you don't get the data to say what the boss wants you don't last long in government.
    I wonder if this paper was peer reviewed before publication?

    If you dig deep enough, as I did, you will find a popular article on this S. Dakota stream which gives first hand experience of one of the politicians or employees who owns a home on the stream. He says that since Didymo got in the stream he catches fewer and smaller trout if I remember correctly. I can't help but wonder how his comments affected the "research" cited in the above publication.
  4. The best quote yet (maybe not word for word); "it's funny how people raise an uproar over someone holding a fish out of water but maybe doing something THAT MAY stop the spread of invasive species causes an uproar".

    I bought a pair of Vibram soled wading boots recently because I found them on sale and thought it would be a good chance to test them out before bans became more widespread. My thoughts; Vibram works great, especially if studs are incorporated, you use common sense and are a competent wader. Granted, I have only used them in winter (sans snot and excessive weed growth) but I have been EXTREMELY happy with them. If you fish in the snow like we do here in CO, Vibram with studs are a great advantage when the banks start getting slippery. Have you ever tried walking on ice with felt?

    It may take you 30 seconds longer to get into casting position when wearing Vibram. However, the benefits outside the water far outweigh the negatives. Thereto I don't because the risk of me is a reason why felt is not used as a sole material outside of wading boots. It stinks.

    Take your time when wading and you will be fine. Seriously, it would be more convenient for me to drive 150 mph to work everyday, but I don't because the potential risk of me accidentally maiming somone is high
  5. Isaacfab:
    here is a list of the titles of papers on "invasive" organisms. I don't have time to type the complete references, but you can google the titles and get the complete info.

    1.On the boots of fishermen: the history of Didymo blooms on Vancouver island, British Columbia. "Didymo blooms in the Heber and Oyster declined by 1998 and although Didymo can be found in these rivers today, blooms have not been observed since circa 2000."

    2.Part 4. Felt-soled wading boots as vectors of D. geminata, and determination of effective decontamination methods. (New Zealand)

    3. Increase in nuisance blooms and geographic expansion of the freshwater diatom Didymosphenia geminata: recommendations for response. ""D. geminata is able to survive on boot tops, NEOPRENE WADERS, and felt soles..."

    4.Whirling disease researchers optimistic about Montana's trout, 2009. Montana State University.

    5.Has Whirling disease come full circle? by Evelyn Boswell. Montana State University.

    6.December 2004 Delimiting survey. Waiau Arm and Lake Manapouri Benthic Surveys. Impacts. Ecology Studies. Trout Impact Study. New Zealand Biosecurity.

    7.River mystery solved: Scientists discover how "Didymo" algae bloom in pristine waters with few nutrients.

    8.Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries. Didymo (invasive freshwater algae) in Virginia.

    9.An unsightly algae extends its grip to a crucial New York stream. by Anthony De Palma, 2009. The New York Times.

    10.Water Quality. Didymosphenia geminata in British Columbia Streams. Environmental Protection Division.

    11. NASA- UV exposure has increased over the last 30 years, but has stabilized since the mid 1990's. (go to NASA home on the internet)

    12.Rock Snot (Didymo/Cymbella) risk analysis for Arizona.

    13.New Mexico Environment Department. Surface water quality bureau.
    Letter to Arnold R. Atkins, MD; President of Truchas Chapter of Trout Unlimited, Dept. 10, 2008. Gives information of Didymo in New Mexico.

    14.Infouniversidades. Outreach and University News. May 23, 2011. Didymo: the invasive algae which threatens Patagonian Rivers.

    15.What is Didymo? Ask an expert. by Don Cosden, Assistant Director, Fisheries Service, Maryland Department of Natural Resources.

    16.Recent advances in the study of long-distance dispersal of aquatic invertebrates via birds. Andy J. Green and Jordi Figuerola. (this is good information on spread of invasives by birds!)

    17.Rapid screening of multiple compounds for control of the invasive diatom D. geminata. Phillip G. Jellyman, et.al., 2010.

    18.Tesky, Julie L. 1993. Anas discors. In: Fire effects information system, (online). U.S. Dept. Agriculture, Forest Service. (provides information as to how blue wing teal could have spread Didymo from N. America to patagonia and South America).

    19.Simms plans about face on felt/ Angling Trade.

    These are the best of the articles I found. Some others I read and discarded either because they were just basically presented information essentially just copied from other articles or because the information was obviously skewed to support the ban on felt.
    if I have missed something, let me know and I will go through my files again.

  6. Jasmillo:
    I agree that rubber boots with studs do have their place, but it is not in a drift boat!:D
    With all due respect, I don't think this thread was started to discuss the pros and cons of different boot soles, but to discuss the merits of banning felt soles.
  7. Anybody ever use felt soles in a drift boat? Freaking terrifying! Or climbing down root wads, or in a raft...
  8. Chuckanduck:

    Aside from the vague hint of conspiracy theory in your post above, I agree that most efforts to control waterborne diseases are flawed, and are failing. I haven't read up on the biology enough to comment on the time required to perish from the cold, etc, etc. but I do want to comment on #'s 4 & 6.

    #4. "So where did our Brown trout come from? Germany. Was that a rhetorical question? What's the point?
    #6. "(sic) state workers are exempt from the felt ban". I suspect that may vary from state to state. Here in WA where felts are still legal, my son was issued a pair of rubber soled boots by DFW to wear on stream surveys. The rationale being that they are certainly no more contagious than felt, and using them saves a lot of unproductive conversation with well meaning recreational anglers.

    Myself? I still have two pairs of serviceable studded felt boots and one rubber. I can only guess that anyone who believes rubber soles work as well as studded felt hasn't spent a season using the felts.
  9. two things: first, it's not difficult to develop disposable felt bottoms that you dump each time you hit a new river; might be a little more expensive, but to me, that seems like a common sense approach. Second, "guvmint" is "handling" this issue?? Oh wonderful, and the track record for the Department of the Interior is...what?? Or the "corpse" of engineers?? Yeah, I'd really depend on government minions to get that problem solved! And England's river restrictions on wading was a land-use/"sporting" issue, not a water issue. It was also somewhat driven by the fact that there originally were no waders invented.
  10. I wearing felts with studs and still fell on my ass. Nothing works when you hit a slippery slope. Or walking through wet leaves.

    There are pro's and con's with everything out there that fishermen use.
  11. Chuck,

    Most of your Woodrow Wilson list of 14 points are either tangential or irrelevant to the question of banning felt soles.

    Human transport is the ultimate cause of species invasion in virtually all cases. We can only take responsibility for those means that we have control over. Pick up and transport of an aquatic invasive (eg, a whirling disease spore) is proportional to surface area; there is little we can do to minimize surface area of waders or the uppers on wading boots, but the difference in surface area between felt and rubber soles is orders of magnitude. Also the slow rate of drying of felt soles permits attached organisms to survive much longer out of water.

    It certainly isn't a marketing gimmick. Consider Simms experiment with eliminating felt soles from their product line; it cost them so many customers that they have reintroduced a felt soled option. Likewise countries like Argentina and New Zealand that are taking strict measures to prevent the introduction and spread of invasives, because they understand the tremendous costs in lost tourism dollars that are at risk.

    As for documentation, I would like to see your documentation for this statement: "Colorado stocks millions of fish annually infected with whirling disease from their hatcheries." I think it has been figured out that the initial introduction of whirling disease in the US came through a fish hatchery in Colorado that had some diseased brood stock. And there have been accidental contaminations in other hatcheries since then, but I'm pretty sure that fish hatcheries throughout the western US now take great pains to prevent fish stocks contaminated with whirling disease from being introduced into public waters.

    A tremendous amount of tax-payers dollars have been spent trying to identify and propagate whirling disease resistant strains of rainbow trout to re-establish populations in western rivers. A cavalier attitude by fishermen towards measures designed to prevent further contamination of ecosystems that presently do not have one or more of the several potentially harmful invasive species will only result in additional damaged ecosystems and costly mitigation measures.

  12. Those stinking PC regulators don't care a rats*** about reality or proof of anything before they start banning, anything and everything, and taking away our rights. That's what it's really all about. I bought a bunch of felt replacements years ago when all this BS started and Simms made their (self-serving) statement about not making felt soled boots any more. Funny how they flip-flopped once the sales of their boots fell off. HAHA! exactly what they deserved and I will never buy anything from them again, but hey, that's just me.

  13. I just fished the Methow. The bottom of the river is covered with some kind of "snot". It covers most of the rocks except in very swift sections. Does anyone know what it is and whether it is an invasive that could contaminate other rivers? I'm concerned about spreading whatever that shit is to other rivers. I'm planning to fish Forks area rivers next week. Do I need to clean/disinfect my boots, waders, etc.? My initial assumption is that it must not be a concern because I could find nothing about it on the DFWD website. (I have fished on the east coast and they post warnings and cleaning recommendations at public access sites on lakes and rivers.)
  14. All the while.people are banning felt soles. Last year when I came to Spokane for my knee check up, I passed several boat checking stations in Idaho. First time I ever saw that. If your boat isn't clean you have to clean it up before you continue down the road.. I wonder if that applies to float tubes as well.
  15. Haven't seen that come up yet here. I think our DFG is mostly focused on trying to eliminate all size restrictions on Stripers so the poachers won't be poachers anymore because our prisons are overcrowded even though we have the highest number of 'em per capita in the U.S. First round failed, however, due to some pretty angry organizations.

    We have boating education too. Notable was the free life jacket program. Apparently someone went to Portland, saw the free bikes downtown, and thought that would be great for life jackets here. Just pick one up, use it, then return it. Step one worked great. Step two , not so much. Few million worth walked away.
  16. Yes, I have. I found them to be stable. I had no problems with them in either a drift boat or in a rubber raft. I don't know what a root wad is, but if you are referring to climbing down steep banks with tree roots exposed, I have done that also.
    I was younger then, but weren't we all.
  17. You are correct. That was 100% of the solution, the fact that waders were not invented as yet, and were not an issue. My comments were intended to be humorous, but perhaps I should have put a disclaimer on the statement. I apologize if I offended anyone.

    Secondly, I like the idea of disposable felts. Of course the price would be a major consideration. At least for me.

    But, I have a tough time getting around the idea that only felt is the cause of the problem. It may well be a major contributing factor, but I have a gut feeling that it is not the whole answer.
  18. Felt sole ban then what ? You Sheeple make me sick !!! You let the nanny state ban that and the next thing you know they will ban wading naked or drunk !!!!
    Jim Darden likes this.
  19. Spot on. And, just as soon as I re-locate to Montana, I want the "no human transport" regulation put into effect. From that day forward, you fish in your own damn state and stay the hell out of someone else's! :D
  20. Nekked maybe, drunk-NEVER.

    Too cold for me to go nekked.
    I am a delicate creature.

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