Felt Sole Bans

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Bill Aubrey, Mar 20, 2012.

  1. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,402
    Media:
    24
    Likes Received:
    847
    Location:
    Edgewood, WA
    Kevin, you are aware that WY just passed a no fishing while drinking law...right?:D
     
  2. Kevin J. Burnham

    Kevin J. Burnham Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    2,150
    Media:
    899
    Likes Received:
    142
    Location:
    Auburn,Wa.
    Not Wyoming !!! I want to retire there !! Looks like they need more people like me there !!!
     
  3. Chuckanduck

    Chuckanduck Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Meeker, CO
    Richard Olmstead:
    I disagree about human transport being the main mode that invasive (or pioneering) species use to invade new habitats. Pioneering species are very good at what they do. They use the wind to spread ("weed" tree species, pine bark beetles) and they hitch rides on migratory birds, either externally in the plumage or internally. Algae communities as well as plankton, for example, are virtually the same all over the world because of hitching rides on and in migratory birds.

    I agree that the chance of transport increases with surface area, but I disagree that this makes a lot of difference. It only takes one cell to colonize a new stream. Using your surface area logic, wouldn't it make more sense to require boot foot waders and ban lace-up wading boots? Can you give me one example where defensive "quarantine" methods have prevented the spread of an invasive species? If so, I may change my mind!

    Here is the documentation on Colorado stocking WD positive fish. It is from their own website. I stand corrected, however. There are 8 WD positive hatcheries in CO, not 6 as I said.
    http://wildlife.state.co.us/Fishing/Management/Pages/WhirlingDisease.aspx
    Here is an article indicating that WD positive fish stocked by the CDOW resulted in the spread of WD into Utah.
    http://www.utahoutdoors.com/pages/whirlingstop.htm
    Another article I found cites a case of a private hatchery in CO that knowingly sold WD positive fish for stocking in Utah and NM.

    I think one could be justified in saying that if WD positive hatcheries throughout the U.S. were shut down, the number of stocked trout would be greatly reduced.
     
  4. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,554
    Media:
    19
    Likes Received:
    850
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Biologists won't dispute that organisms can migrate successfully on their own; the distribution of species on earth is testimony to that. However, such migration rates are best estimated in thousands to millions of years, whereas human assisted migration has completely outstripped those rates and can account for virtually all of the harmful invasive species on earth today in ecosystems where they were not native.

    "It only takes one cell to colonize a new stream." This doesn't mean that a single cell will successfully establish a new population. The probability of successful colonization will be inversely proportional to the size of the founding population. So measures to reduce both the probability of transferring propagules and the number will have an effect.

    Yes, there are other measures that can and should be taken. Laws about watercraft and the checkpoints now in place to inspect them are another example. I suspect you are right that stocking foot waders with rubber soles would be less likely to transport invasives, but felt soles have been documented as a problem, so I can understand why they are starting there.

    Argentina, which thus far has avoided any of the bad aquatic invasives, has very strict regulations, and stricter ones proposed. Foreign fishermean (except from countries bordering Argentina) are now required to bring only NEW waders and wading boots. They are very paranoid about the potential impact on their economy, if anything hurts the fishing tourism (which, of course, is based on invasive, northern hemisphere trout species!).

    D
     
  5. BRsnow

    BRsnow Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Richard, you get it! Nice, it is all about prevention and mind-set. Thanks, BR
     
  6. ak_powder_monkey

    ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    3,223
    Media:
    39
    Likes Received:
    112
    Location:
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Or a metal skiff, god I hated felts in the jet boats... Hated! Nothing worse than rolling up a river at 35mph and falling on your ass and pulling the tiller back beaching the boat. Hitting shit at 35 is not fun.
     
  7. Olive bugger

    Olive bugger Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,591
    Likes Received:
    457
    Location:
    Woodinville, WA
    Never used them in a metal boat. I can see where that might be a problem though. My little 8 horse will not push 35 MPH on flat water, let alone a river channel. I also have plywood floorboards in my aluminum boat.
    But when I am in that boat, I usually have rubber soled boots on.

    I guess my problem is that I have a really nice pair of felt soled boots that I bought years ago and I just got them broken in the way I like them. Now I find out that I might be a carrier. Lawdy, I hate being a carrier.
     
  8. BRsnow

    BRsnow Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    It would be nice if the mind set of leaving the earth a better place for future generations was the norm, just reading this thread really shows how far away we are. BR
     
  9. Chuckanduck

    Chuckanduck Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Meeker, CO
    BRsnow:
    Very well thought out response and I can go along with everything you said except one thing: banning felt soled boots is a good start.
    It is too late for a good start. As has been stated over and over again, Didymo is a native species and is already present in the northern hemisphere and WD is scattered all over this country thanks to the practice of stocking hatchery trout. As far as I know, every study of Didymo "blooms" has shown an increase in the benthic organisms, particularly Chironomids or "midges". I have already given examples and referenced all of these things in an above post but I have more if you need them.
    Oh, and as for the mind set of leaving the earth a better place for future generations? If you truly had that mindset, and humans, as you said, are the means of transport of these "invasives", then you need to give up flyfishing since you agreed that lace-up boots and neoprene waders are a means of transport (I can reference that as well).
    Our trout fisheries are ever changing. They are not the "natural" brook trout and cutthroat streams of our forefathers anymore. We fish for "invasive" species such as rainbow trout and brown trout, Pacific salmon and Atlantic salmon in the Great Lakes and trout in high mountain lakes where they were never before found. Mining has decimated many of our favorite trout streams and dams have created many others. We need to cease our rigid and expensive attempts to resist the inevitable changes brought about by our own overpopulation. Inevitably, changes will occur and we need to spend our efforts and money learning ways to adapt to those changes.

    Oh, and by the way, stocking foot neoprenes and lace up wading boots have been documented as transport methods and actually they were documented in the same New Zealand study! I quote: ".....boot tops, felt soles and neoprene waders ALL present a high risk of transfer if they are not decontaminated." Doesn't this fact make you wonder why only felt soles have been banned?
     
  10. Chuckanduck

    Chuckanduck Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Meeker, CO
    Hey BRsnow!
    Guess what? Even requiring anglers to wear brand new waders hasn't kept "rock snot" out of Argentina. I found a report stating that 56 kilometers of the Espolon and Futaleufu Rivers in Argentina have recently become infected!
     
  11. BRsnow

    BRsnow Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    You see it is not all or nothing, but was is more disturbing is that you are excited by the fact you found infection. BR
     
  12. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,402
    Media:
    24
    Likes Received:
    847
    Location:
    Edgewood, WA
    My take on his responses is that subscribing to the theory that eliminating felts eliminates the spread of these organisms is bogus. Similar to the global warming debate, there is ample data on both sides to say we really don't know shit about how mother nature does some of what she does... but put a big enough carrot out there and new found religions spring up like weeds in a pea patch.
     
    Abomb likes this.
  13. Abomb

    Abomb Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    In the skinny
    This. Great post.
     
  14. BRsnow

    BRsnow Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    It would seem people are conservationist until it affects how they do things. BR
     
  15. Chuckanduck

    Chuckanduck Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Meeker, CO
    I couldn't agree more!
    And companies are conservationists until it affects their bottom line!
     
  16. Kaiserman

    Kaiserman content

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,719
    Likes Received:
    476

    Honestly, I mean really... be honest. How many here actually considered not wearing felt sores, to save the earth, before they were banned.

    You don't need to answer, because I already know the answer. One word - Bandwagon. Simms (along with a couple others) started it, now we can't stop it.

    If you truly feel you can have an affect, fish naked, don't stop with the felt.
     
  17. Chuckanduck

    Chuckanduck Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Meeker, CO
     
  18. Chuckanduck

    Chuckanduck Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Meeker, CO
    I would suggest changing "bandwagon" to "sheep", Dave. I only wish everyone would read the factual information and research with a critical and questioning mind! The authors of "research" and the popular press are no different than too many of the people that read them......sheep.
    Thank goodness natural systems are more resilient to changes than people! It would be prudent for humans to remember that species that do not or cannot adapt to changes are the ones that become extinct!
     
  19. _WW_

    _WW_ Fishes with Wolves

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,994
    Media:
    58
    Likes Received:
    701
    Location:
    Skagit River
    That would be some serious eye pollution there. But if you must, make sure to get a second pole endorsement.
     
  20. BRsnow

    BRsnow Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Perception is important, at this point in time if you choose to wear felt you are viewed as either uneducated or unconcerned about the environment. It is a step in the right direction. BR
     

Share This Page