Fishing and firearms

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Kent Lufkin, Oct 1, 2003.

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  1. Fish Stick New Member

    Posts: 78
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    Not sure if anyone's still reading this string, but I'll chip in too. Anyone who owns a gun should also own "Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibilities" by Dave Workman and/or "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob. Carrying a pistol outside your home is a huge responsibility and shooting a person, no matter the situation, can land you in jail for life if there aren't any friendly witnesses. Basically, a fistfight isn't enough. You'd better be facing death itself before you pull that trigger.

    That said, I do carry a six-pack of .44 bear repellent in the sticks of Montana and sometimes a 9mm cat blaster around here, usually only if I'm going somewhere isolated and bushy on foot and alone. Rarely ever will I carry a gun if I'm floating a raft. I almost always (at least on the west side of the Cascades) will carry a long tanto-style bush knife on my wading belt to clear blackberry vines and prevent wader punctures.

    Ayoob, a cop trainer, advocates lawful concealed carry because it retains your surprise advantage and let's you more easily try to talk your way out of a situation without escalation. If that doesn't work, you have a back-up plan. I don't have a CWP, but see his point. I was confronted by a Camaro full of locals at C-post bridge on the Stilly one 4th of July. 5 vs. 1 are bad odds and I talked them out of whatever they were thinking of without needing the hunting knife I had beside me on the front seat of my car. If I'd have had a gun, I sure wouldn't have wanted to show it to them prematurely because god only knows what they might've had in their car.

    FYI - Police studies have determined that at 20' a knife is more dangerous than a gun, due to its speed and the inherent inaccuracy of pistols, which is why they usually shoot knife-wielding suspects at about 20'.

    Whatever your philosophy, be careful and responsible out there. GuyG has a great point - let's continue to NOT read about this stuff in the papers. Yes, Beer brings the world together, yum! :beer2
  2. speyfisher Active Member

    Posts: 1,056
    State of Jefferson U.S.A.
    Ratings: +136 / 3
    Going on four pages of discussion here must surely give this post some credibility. And I would like to point out that no one has yet to be shot, or even threatened, by any of the so called paranoid gun totin' wannabe cowboys. Or whatever. Most of you seem to have your head screwed on straight. There have been some very good points brought up here.

    Myself, I grew up around guns. My Grandfather was into muzzle loading rifles as well as modern guns. There were always three of four MLRs behind every door. And there was a door going to and from every room in that old house! Closets full of them. Basement full of them. They were everywhere. There was a beautiful .22 revolver on the shelf in the coat closet. All us kids knew it was there. We would admire it from time to time when we played in that big old walk in closet. We knew how to check and see whether or not it was loaded. And we always checked. No one in our family ever got hurt by any of those guns!

    I lived in Southeast L.A. county during the Watts riots. They were throwing Molotov Cocktails only blocks from our house. I kept a firerarm in the house from that time on. My girls were little then. But as they grew up I taught them about firearms & took them shooting. They saw what a .22 or a 12 ga could do to a watermelon. I also kept the guns locked up while I was away.

    In Oregon, where I now live, I could have a CC permit if I wanted it. I could also carry concealed while on the river if I wanted to. One of these days I will get a CC permit. I think everyone who can should have one. Whether you indend to carry, or not. I also think everyone who legally owns a firearm should support that right buy joining the NRA. And with that I'll leave you with this parting thought.

    If you thought the guy who low holed you might be packing, would you still be inclinded to flip him the bird?:confused:
  3. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    Wow - this was pulled up from October 2003. Why not start a new post, some of these guys might not even be around anymore...
  4. ErieSteelhead Guest

    Posts: 0
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    If anyone is carrying a 357 to protect themselvs from an attacking bear or cougar they are in for a pretty nasty suprise. I wouldn't use anything less than 50 cal hollowpoints in a hanndgun. A 44, 357, 9 mm, 38 or anything 99.99999% of the people carry do not have enough stopping power to instantly drop a hard charging bear or big cat. They'll run on Adrenalin right through you. Ask a cop, who has had to shoot someone who was hopped up on pcp, what they carry. Betcha it's not a 9 mm glock any more. My x's dad was city cop. Shot a guy dead center 5 times with a 9 mil and the drugged out guy still managed to stab him three times before going down. Imagaine what a full grown Black or Griz loaded with adrenalin will do to you. I am all for carrying and the right to carry. Just a bit of info to let most of ya'll know that xtra couple pounds in your pocket is probably worthless.

    Also, whoever it was that bought a pistol for home protection. It's worthless. Trade it for a sawed off 12 ga pump w/pistol grip and load it with rocksalt or pepper salt. An errant bullet will go through drywall and kill your kids, your dog, your neighbors, or some kid on the sidewalk walking home from school. ;) Plus you won't get 5 to 20 for wacking some meth head hell bent on robbing your house
  5. Mike T Active Member

    Posts: 849
    Gig Harbor, WA
    Ratings: +54 / 1
    Should you decide to carry, be very aware of where it is and isn't legal and the legal methods of carry. For instance open or concealed carry is legal in a national forest but illegal in a national park. Open carry is legal for all who are legally allowed to own a handgun in WA, ID or MT, but don't conceal it in any fashion unless you have a valid CPL.

    As stated earlier the decision to carry isn't one to be taken lightly. Learn the laws and understand the responsibility it implies. Those times in which you are legally allowed to employ lethal force are very few and tightly defined.

    A gun is a tool, simple as that. As far as "accidentally going off" that's ridiculous. Every "accidental discharge" I've heard of or witnessed has been negligence. Keep your finger off the trigger, invest in a good holster, those Uncle Mike's at Sportco are pure crap, only aim at what you're willing to destroy, only place your finger on the trigger when you're ready to fire. If you follow all those you've done 99% of what's required to be a safe shooter.
  6. Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

    Posts: 621
    between the mountains and the sound
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    Like a lot of you, I grew up around guns. When my Grandpap passed away, he had over 400 guns (Winchesters, Navy Cap and Balls, real classics). It was a right of passage in our family that when you could finally outshoot Granddad with his single-shot .22, he would bestow upon you your first gun. He usually let you hit more bullseyes when he thought you were ready for the responsibility of the ownership. Of course, SAFETY was always the first thing we learned. So I'm comfortable around guns, but have HUGE respect for their potential for destruction and tragedy.

    When I decided to get a CWP (fifteen years ago), I took classes specifically designed to teach proper concealment, realistic training, and most importantly, the legal ramifications of owning and carrying a weapon.

    I've only pulled my pistol once, on a very aggressive dog that was just about to attack my girlfriend and me at a trailhead in a wilderness area. The owner was enjoying our situation (literally, I looked over at him as his dog was snarling and circling us, and he was laughing!), until I pulled my .357 from under my shirt, and aimed it at his dog's head. I was just about to pull the trigger, and that was when he called his dog off.

    I almost always carry a pistol, unless prohibited (National Parks, bars, Govt offices, airports, schools). There's been a lot of times I felt better having a gun immediately available, even if I didn't need to actually use it (tweakers on back roads tailgating/harassing me, encounters with feral dogs on the river, and a rutting moose I ran into in the Idaho Selkirks). But every time, I avoided the problem by using situational awareness and the most powerful weapon of all, my brain. Carrying a weapon doesn't give you the right to be a smart ass or escalate a situation you can walk away from!

    I prefer wheelguns for the wilderness, because they are much less likely to fail in a moment of need. They don't have as many shots as an autoloader, but if you can't get it done with six, you're probably in bigger trouble then a handgun is gonna solve, anyway.

    My current backcountry/fishing pistol is a stainless Ruger GP100 .357, 4 inch barrel. The first shell is a shot shell, then five hollowpoints. I don't have much faith that I could kill a charging bear with it, but I can use it to signal if I'm hurt, kill food if needed, or defend myself against two-legged predators. I really hope and pray it never comes down to that, but I've always believed "it's better to have it and not need it", than the opposite.

    I'm thinking about getting a Scandium S&W .44, but $700? Ouch.

    Glock 19 for city carry, Kimber Custom .45 for IPSC/competition shooting, and a sweet little S&W .22 for plinking.

    Carrying a weapon is a gigantic responsibility. Don't take it lightly.
  7. otter Banned or Parked

    Posts: 376
    Port Angeles, Washington
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Not to sound to irreverent here, but I've got a great concept for a rockandroll band called "guns 'n fishes". Its just that i've never connected firearms and fish .......

    anyway, grew up with guns. Hunting, trap & skeet, etc. Still own guns, not that many. Personal choice for a worst case situation is my preban winchester 12 ga. riot gun loaded with alternate buck and ball. Worst case situations tend to be very close range and instantaneous.

    So my question is how did you get there in the first place?

    Some high end executive at Toyota said it some years ago about America and Americans - in reference to why Toyota was kicking our ass in the the car business -

    Americans. "Ready, fire, aim............"

    Japanese. Ready, aim, fire..........."

    As Snake sd. "the most powerful weapon of all, my brain."

    Placing your belief in firepower puts the brain to sleep. Then you die. Plenty of examples, large and small, in history.

    I'd rather be scared shitless and moving and thinking fast. And yes the riot gun is always loaded (i know, more rules broken): i just don't depend on it.

    Otter
  8. otter Banned or Parked

    Posts: 376
    Port Angeles, Washington
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Not to sound to irreverent here, but I've got a great concept for a rockandroll band called "guns 'n fishes". Its just that i've never connected firearms and fish .......

    anyway, grew up with guns. Hunting, trap & skeet, etc. Still own guns, not that many. Personal choice for a worst case situation is my preban winchester 12 ga. riot gun loaded with alternate buck and ball. Worst case situations tend to be very close range and instantaneous.

    So my question is how did you get there in the first place?

    Some high end executive at Toyota said it some years ago about America and Americans - in reference to why Toyota was kicking our ass in the the car business -

    Americans. "Ready, fire, aim............"

    Japanese. Ready, aim, fire..........."

    As Snake sd. "the most powerful weapon of all, my brain."

    Placing your belief in firepower puts the brain to sleep. Then you die. Plenty of examples, large and small, in history.

    I'd rather be scared shitless and moving and thinking fast. And yes the riot gun is always loaded (i know, more rules broken): i just don't depend on it.

    Otter
  9. TrappedinCO Help! I'm trapped in a landlocked state.

    Posts: 144
    Littleton, CO
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    To take this in a slightly different direction, does anyone have any opinions on stainless versus blued in a .44 mag revolver? Assuming one takes care of it and keeps it oiled and not neglected, does it really matter corrosion-wise with the type of environments encountered while fishing? I've heard stainless is weaker in very cold weather, but I haven't found any info to back that up.

    Good thread. Lots of good points, pro and con.
  10. Mike T Active Member

    Posts: 849
    Gig Harbor, WA
    Ratings: +54 / 1
    TrappedinCO- I've always loved S&W revolvers in blue, but having said that two of my 3 S&W's are stainless, just for their ease of maintenance. I've never heard that stainless is weaker in extreme cold, I know it's easier to scratch than carbon steel so I suppose it follows that it's softer. But bear in mind that S&W produce their 50cal revolvers and 460 revolvers only in stainless. As those rounds generate enormous pressures & are designed for extreme use I wouldn't worry about it. If you still have questions S&W's customer service is extraordinary.
  11. o mykiss Active Member

    Posts: 1,303
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    I must say, it's always the gun threads on this site that surprise me the most. Just when you think you've pinned someone down as a mushy-headed liberal, you find out he's got more firepower than the Branch Davidians.
  12. Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

    Posts: 621
    between the mountains and the sound
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    There are many ways, grasshopper.
  13. otter Banned or Parked

    Posts: 376
    Port Angeles, Washington
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Technology is just exactly as smart, or stupid, as the person using it. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions, starting about 40,000 B.C., all continents.


    Otter
  14. Fish Hunter Too many people, not enough fish

    Posts: 200
    WA
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    Always. Kimber .45 ACP.
  15. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Posts: 7,136
    Not sure
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    Yep. Stainless = dishwasher safe.

    K
  16. Salmo_g Active Member

    Posts: 7,476
    Your City ,State
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    Wow, I had no idea how necessary a handgun might be to safe fly fishing. Funny to read about the need of handgun protection from cougars and bears. By most accounts, if a cougar wishes to attack you, you won't know until after it happens. Good luck getting that killing shot off. Almost the same with bears. I've read a pretty detailed account by a handgun expert that very few handguns have the capacity to disable a grizzly bear before it disables the gunbearer. 12 guage and pepper spray seem to be the odds on favorites, after the guides admonishment, "hey bear, hey bear," while walking through the bear brush in Alaska and Kamchatka.

    I once asked a former wildlife agent about the most suitable firearm for home protection. He said that unless I was willing to train regularly with a handgun, it would be a waste. Better to have a shotgun in the bedroom. He said very, very few burglers, tweakers, or other ner-do-wells would stick around when they heard the action of a shotgun chambering shells. And for those who might stick around, the necessary accuracy isn't too difficult nor does it require regular training.

    As for meth heads on the river, I'm not so sure about the effectiveness of a concealed pistol. A chief of police once told me that the average firefight is over in less than 10 seconds, and a lot of rounds might be fired, with very few hitting their intended targets. And this included professional deputies who trained regularly at the gun range as part of their jobs. Makes me wonder about the probably outcomes of a river side pistol fire fight between untrained meth heads and fly fishermen. Or do all you who carry handguns train every month? If not, that piece may just be providing emotional security, as opposed to physical security.

    So far, I've decided not to buy a handgun. I'm quite certain I wouldn't allocate time from my busy schedule to practice each and every month for the rest of my life. And if I had one, I wouldn't want to bother strapping it on under my waders to not actually increase my safety while fishing. (How accessible is that thing when I'm standing waist deep in the river, anyway?) And I'm not about to pack a shotgun while fishing, altho in grouse season, it may actually make sense. But as the perfect point and shoot weapon, it deserves a gun rack on the bedroom wall.
  17. CBP1888 New Member

    Posts: 82
    Seattle,WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I don't cary a handgun, but own a few of them. There have been a few incidents on the river where I would have felt alot safer if I was packing. Today, I was walking up the Cedar River when I caught some meth addicts off guard who where shooting the stuff into their veins. They got up in a scramble and headed over the hill, but for a quick second my heart skipped a couple of beats. I've never heard of a flyfisherman getting gunned down or mauled by a bear in the Washington. I think to pack or not to pack is a personal preference and it really does not bother me one bit, several of my fishing buddies carry guns when we are fishing and it really doesn't phase me to much. If I were to carry one of my pistols I would carry the Kaur P40 in stainless, the weapon is extremely light and very concealible, it will fit in your pocket.
    I agree with Salmo_G, if you're going to pack, you need to practice:ray1:
  18. E'burg fisher Member

    Posts: 148
    Ellensburg
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    Granted this is an old thread but I think some of the statements about accidental injury/death should be addresses. I would encourage a visit to the CDC web site. Accidental injury and death from firearms is just not the pandemic some make them out to be. Any time a child is killed it is a tragedy and anyone who could have prevented it or who's irresponsiblity allowed it should be fully held accountable. In reality though (and thankfully) it does not happen very often. And most of the time it fits a very specific profile. Usually is a firearm brought into the house by a non-relative male and firearm is not responsibly stored.

    If you make the choice not to own/carry a firearm I respect that. I would ask that you also respect mine and others choose to. I have never committed an illegal act with a firearm or allowed it it to be used irresponsibly. And from what I have seen at work almost all who make the choice to own and carry firearms make the same responsible decisions. I just don't get the whole guns are inheritantly evil thing. Seems a little paranoid and uneducated (about firearms). In 10 years at my job only twice have I come across a legal gun owners who did recognize the responsibility of carrying and owning a firearm. One was just a jerk and the other was "not well" and decided to go for his gun as we went in to help him. Luckily he was kept from reaching it and was given the help he needed. Now I have seen lots of people who were illegally in possession of firearms do lots of illegal and irresponsible things with them. All the guns laws in the world (including some of those now being debated at the UN) wouldn't have kept them from committing those acts. They were already illegal so I doubt more laws would have mattered to them. We don't take away everyones cars because some ass got drunk and killed someone with their car. And way more people are killed and injured by drunk drivers than even illegal gun acts.

    I don't usually carry when fishing but do most of the rest of the time. I live and work in a small town and have been recognized by some that I have had to contact at work. I have never had to draw a weapon, when not working, but have had threats made against my family inluding once when my pregnant wife and I were leaving a store. We were able to leave and call so the guys who were working could go contact him, but I knew that if they chose to press the issue or carry out the threat I could have defended us.

    I view carrying firearm as preparation for worst case scenarios. Crazy crap happens and I have seen some unsuspecting folks suffer some pretty exstensive injuries. Almost all were not being aware of their surroundings and they were not prepared nor able to defend themselves. If you are a legal and responsible gun owner, kudos to you!
  19. djzaro New Member

    Posts: 218
    gone, bs
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    wish I had a gun, now I carry always

    Here's to you native, guyg, and anyone else who wants to know. You asked if anyone really ever have needed a gun. YES, In granite falls me and my friends were beat up pretty bad by a bunch of local kids. My friend was beat so bad he was clinicly dead for a few seconds. A rock to the head over and over with others kicking it in will seem to do that. After the investigation we found out that this is common for that area. Shorecrest QB had it happen to him weeks before us. A father was killed in the same matter and left in a ditch a year earlier. Too many other cases to mention. If you want proof, just call the Snohomish county prosecuter and ask about the cases that led to the old scotty road 5000 being closed. WANT more proof? go fish the south fork of the sky alone for a while and see what you think. I guarantee you will either be packing in a month or you wont be fishing there anymore. If I had a gun in Granite Falls I would of used it and been justified. If you think that a gun will never be needed you haven't been confronted like I have. Go talk with the fly guys on the south fork of sky and ask them about stories of when they were in trouble, you will change your mind.
  20. 05tacoma Member

    Posts: 246
    Auburn, WA
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    I've never carried while fishing, although the thought has crossed my mind. I watched two guys pull up in front of my house, head to my garage door and proceed to start breaking in. Called cops... response time 8 minutes. I got lucky as I started screaming at the guys and they ran off. That's when I realized how screwed I would have been if that had not worked.

    I respect those who do not like guns. If you feel comfortable without one great, but just remember you can't just snap your fingers and have the police show up. YOU have to be responsible for defending yourself and your family. If you can do it with a knife or baseball bat have at it. Some of us prefer other methods.
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