Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Kent Lufkin, Oct 1, 2003.
I think this is more of what you need.:thumb:
Buy whatever gun you shoot best - whatever gun makes you look better. Go to someplace like Bullseye. Get two targets for each gun that you want to try. Place the targets at 5 yards, Shoot five shots slow fire, change targets, shot five shots rapid fire, change targets, go to the next gun. Record all of your results on each target as to which gun they were from. Sit down with a beer afterwards to see which gun fit your hand better / worked better for you.
Re caliber - 9, .357, .357 sig, .40 or .45 will all get the job done. One in the head and two in the cest and no one is getting up. Remember that if your ammo costs less, and recoil is not as severe then you will tend to shoot better and more. It is about placement. Sharper nail - not bigger hammer.
Re critters - unles you are extremely skilled - like have been through SF weapons training or are a DOJ field agent - you are going to have little chance of using a hand gun for protection against a cat or bear - get bear spray.
I carry in the city. I usually fish well into the backcountry so meth heads are not a problem for me, but I rearly carry in the field. There are weeks that I shoot 1,000 rounds (fortunately I don't pay for my ammo) and doubt that I could hit a charging critter with any accuracy.
Finally - take a few courses from different schools to get a few different points of view.
Guns owned include 1911s and 9mms. Gun of choice - Sig 226 9mm.
.357 Mag with 180 grain rounds. Short barreled five shot revolver.
It helps me sleep better when I'm in the middle of nowhere.
Can you guys clue me in to where these "certain areas" are that you guys are inclined to bring a piece to while fishing, so that I can be sure to NEVER EVER go fish there.
I need to move back to CO with all this nonsense.
when all the outlaws turn em in, they can have mine too!
But only on Hike in situations. If I'm truck fishing not on my person.
And the anti's that preach guns kill people, no...it's people who kill people the guns are innocent, =)
WOW!!! Sir, with all due respect, you honestly have no rational/realistic idea of what this world has come to. I am a Police Officer in the lovely State of Washington and I'll tell you right now that I sure don't want the law abiding, sensible citizens turning their guns in to me. What you fail to understand is that corrupt criminals in this world will always obtain and possess such things as firearms and other weapons. There is no gun ban that would stop this. For that reason, my hat goes off to the law abiding citizens who are sensible and use common sense in dealing with owning/carrying firearms. In the event that they or their families lives are threatened, by person or animal, they certainly should use all means necessary to protect themselves. In my daily dealings with people out on the street, I may be skeptical of anyone carrying a firearm and I may take certain precautions and actions when dealing with those people. This however only reflects on my lack of knowledge on the specific person that I am dealing with, and my commitment to come home alive every night. When all is said and done, if you are legally armed, I have no qualms; In fact, I have a lot of respect those people. It is those people that I know would pull their car over to the side of the road and help me if I was in dire need. My back-up should really be all around me; unfortunately, today's nimble minded, "scared" members of society just sit around, watch, get scared, and freeze up. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I AM GAINFULLY EMPLOYED. I'm sorry to say, but you my friend are a sheep. It is because of those like myself, the sheep dogs, that you are provided safety from the wolves. I hope this has provided you with some thoughtful education.
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I assure you the problem isn't limited to here, it's anywhere you mix urban trash and the outdoors where they can pull their crap in what they perceive to be privacy. And mocking those who recognize a problem won't keep it from affecting you.
I have mountain biked a lot over the past several years in BC, OR, ID & WA. I didn't use to carry while cycling, but now I do. One day while riding with my wife and sister we were grinding up a logging road in the rain when I noticed a fellow standing just inside the forest wearing a poncho and not much else. He looked like an apparition and while he stood stock still he stared intently at the girls I was with. After climbing for a while I was tired and wonder how that would have turned out if he had tried something. I've come upon the remains of meth cooking camps, locals who rival anything from Deliverance, and a man wearing only a kilt while practicing with a long sword in the woods.
Believe me if you make the choice to get a gun for self protection you'll be doing yourself, your family and community a great service by taking professional training. Once trained you'll truly understand that a gun isn't a magic talisman that will protect you, nor will you hit everything you aim at like John Wayne. It is a tool to be used only in the gravest extreme. It is rather unpleasant to think of, but to be victimized by a crime is IMO a much more horrible prospect.
Not much to add.
Didn't carry a gun while living in WA...but that was 12 years ago.
I occasionally carry a gun in AK when I fish. More often I have "critter spray" in the 9 oz variety.
I am a staunch advocate of extensive firearm training for those who choose to own/use them. Massive responsibility goes with them, and a lot of folks blow it off and do retarded things with their guns.
In the words of a wise man..."an armed society is a polite society"
IMHO and YMMV,
You wonder what would have happened --IF-- he tried something. But he didn't try anything, did he? And you didn't need a gun did you? And so what if some guy's practicing with a sword in a kilt. Did he try to use it on you? Apparently not. I pity the guy who's working on his swordplay in the woods and has to deal with YOU when you come packing heat down the trail.
I respect your insights and experience as a law officer, but I find it astonishing that you are on a public forum encouraging people to go out into public armed. This can't really make your job any easier can it? And your high opinion of yourelf as "sheepdog" illustrates perfectly just the sort of false bravado that carrying a gun can too often instill in people -- in your case you're trained, and I'll assume some of the bravado has been earned on the job, but it's exactly the kind of mentality in others that I don't want to deal with when I'm out on the river.
I'm not some PC anti who thinks guns should be illegal. I've shot my share of them, I know the thrill they can bring when used responsibly. But people, come on! -- the only thing that bringing a gun to the river can gaurantee you is the likelyhood of bringing gun-fire to the river.
Be careful out there.
If you're a responsible gun-owner/carrier, it guarantees the right to defend yourself in situations where deadly force is appropriate and legally justifiable. No more, no less.
I'd agree that the gun laws in the USA are too lax, and there's waaayyy too many people who's idea of gun use is derived from Rambo movies.
But if guns are out there, and the bad guys have them, shouldn't the playing field be level?
If you can figure out a way to delineate the whackos who shouldn't have guns, from those that are responsible owners, let your congressman know!
Personally, I think psych evaluations, 10-20 hour safety classes, morgue viewing of GSW victims, and retinal scans should be a pre-requisite for even owning a gun, let alone having a CWP.
It ain't your grandad's world.
dsteady, If you haven't yet, read my post on page four I think. Now try your argument with me. What if those kids tried something?.... Oh, they did. They beat my best friends head in and serious hurt the rest of us. Tell your argument to the mother and child left behind by the dead father who was looking for help when there car broke down. Just because you don't think you have a reason to carry doesn't mean no one else does either. I am glad you have been lucky enough not to be in a situation to need a gun, but others of us are different. I have seen that ugly side of society and I will always do what I need to do to protect myself. And I STRONGLY agree with the other who say to go to a firearms training class. It should be required to carry.
Your story is very chilling. But it also sounds like a unique situation where the same kids were perpetrating the same violence in the same area over a period of time. I don't really know, of course, but that's how the details of your post make it sound. Did the attacks stop after they closed down that road? I'm truly sorry for your and your friends' treatment, but no I won't back down from my argument. How did the situation escalate? Did they ambush you and your friend? Can you be certain that having a gun would have changed the outcome?
It sounds like a case of "wilding" like what went on in Central Park back in the 80's. You may remember, I don't know. But Central Park used to be a violent place where citizens feared to walk after dark. Now it's quite tame and once again a public space to be enjoyed by all. This wasn't accomplished through a suddenly armed citizenry. It was accomplished by a comprehensive program to reduce crime and the causes of crime in the area. This included an increased police presence, stiffer penalties for "quality of life" crimes (grafitti, vandalism, etc) which helped stem the pattern of criminal behavior that often led to violence, a massive reduction in the crack trade, and I think some pretty tough gun-control laws well. But New Yorkers running around with CWP's was never part of the program, and every statistic shows that New York has dramatically reduced its pattern of violent crime over the past 2 decades. Rudy Giuliani -- and this is a Democrat writing - is very much to be credited for this.
It seems like a lot of this rural crime is a direct result of the meth epidemic that is affecting the country. I agree that these tweakers need to be dealt with severely. That drug has a long history of making people unpredictable and very, very stupid. Missouri was one of the first states to identify that it had a real meth problem and they initiated an early program to track and shut down meth labs within the state. I recently saw an article that said this had been pretty successful there and that now Missouri has shown the greatest reduction in labs nationwide. To my mind this is a better policy than increasing the concentration of firearms in the countryside.
I'll refrain from telling people what to do with their guns. I hope to hunt one day when I have the chance, I'd really like to bag an Elk -- for food. But I really believe that the security a lot of people feel having a concealed weapon is delusional. And even if your gun gets you out of a bad situation on the river it might not save you from the DA back in town who tries to nail you for 2nd or 3rd degree manslaughter. IMHO escalating the concentration of guns in the woods will only feed more of the fear and paranoia that is likely to make those guns start going off.
Best wishes for a safe fishing season.
I'd rather be tried by 12, then carried by 6 . Speaking for myself, I carried a pistol to work for 12 years, i feel that because of my experience and training, i have a responsibility to protect myself, and others should i be present in a bad situation. Having said that I carry very rarely, I feel that in my case, this is derelict, but i guess i'm getting soft at my old age. I however, when in the sticks or whatever, ALWAYS, carry. One has to remember, you are your own Fire Dept and Police Department. Nobody is there to call 911, and if they did, not only are they 30 minutes to and hour out, but they will likely have a hard time finding you too. One has to also remember that when in the sticks, predators, know this to be all too true, as well, and will exploit it. Thats a lotto I don't feel like winning.
If you have little to no experience with firearms, I suggest you not use one, avoid situations, and use your brain and common sense. Anyone can shoot a firearm, and even learn to shoot one well quickly, but there is more to this responsibility than dropping the hammer on a target. You need to know in a milisecond, if your life is in danger, if your action is legal, and then make the decision to take the life of another person, regardless of how bad they are.
And above all else, you never reveal that you have a weapon or point it at a bad guy hoping the threat will deter him, it may land you in jail , if your wrong (pointing and aiming is considered agg assault) It may also give the bad guy a chance to retreat, and then be waiting for you down the logging road, he knows you need to drive down. There is no catch and release in a gun fight. I'm all for thinning the herd when it comes to these slimy, lazy, evil, predatory sons of bitches, but not everybody is conditioned for this. Its a personal choice. Only you as an individual, know, if you can carry the weight of this responsibility.
you got to be kidding, me, i just read an earlier post and let me tell you , you are off your rocker, and who the hell are you to tell others they can't defend themselves. you speak of programs to reduce crime. did that guy standing behind you at the ATM with a gun ready to make your wife a widow, see that program or even give a sh!t about it. No! he's just a lazy, dangerous piece of sh!t, looking to take your money and harm you. who gives a $#!+ about some gdamned study. if a guy is in your face, intent on taking your life, (in your mind anyways), you have to drop him, because if you don't he's gonna drop you. Do you really want to place your life, in this sh#t heads mercy? Are you actually going to depend on some gdamned program to keep you safe? Give me a #$%@&*$, break! you have absolutely no damned idea of what it is you are talking about. And who the heck are you to attack a Law enforcement officer. Yeah right, like you know better. I have worked in Law enforcement as well, and you have no damn idea, of what Evil, lurks out there. I don't know how many statements I took from stabbing and gunshot victims, that started out, "this guy approached me and asked for a dollar, or asked what time it is, and then next thing i know, i'm hurt". dsteady, Evil, doesn't wear a sign, And let me tell you another thing, this Officer you critisized "IS" a Sheep Dog, and you sir are a lamb (quite obviously so.) Believe it or not, many if not most police officers are supportive of the concealed carry laws. You speak of what you do not know, and your ignorance to ones right! to protect themselves is obvious. It's clear, you are not prepared to defend yourself, and it's good that you have chosen not to carry a concealed weapon, recognizing that your superior intellect will keep you safe, but dumb@sses, such as myself, leaking of bravado, and ignorance, will continue to make our own choice to protect ourselves, others and even you.
so much for my prior thread laced with civility
Thanks Gearhead, Well said!!! iagree
Go fishing ya crazy bastards.
I think this needs to go offline, it's getting old, real quick...:ray1: