Fishing related Political Question: Sarah Palin and Pebble mine?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by herl, Sep 4, 2008.

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  1. sportsman Active Member

    Posts: 809
    Kirkland, wa., 98034.
    Ratings: +80 / 0
    Frywoods quote: "The unprecedented rise in jihadists to which you refer can be traced to two specific events, Jimmy Carter deposing the Shaw of Iran and allowing the Ayatollahs to seize control"???? Where in Gods name did you come up with that? Did you have a way too far to the right PolySci professor tell you that and you actually believed him?
  2. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

    Posts: 17,593
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Ratings: +1,543 / 9
    Are we all convinced of the supreme power of a single person as the President and another as the Vice President? Not in our society, governmental structure or in today's day and age is that one or two people so powerful. Might I suggest a big picutre approach that looks at the overall governmental process? Man this thread really drew some attention!
  3. Derek Day Rockyday

    Posts: 567
    Olympia
    Ratings: +146 / 0
    Wasteful practices, overextension of military resources and inability to adapt to an ever changing world can be traced, jointly or singularly, to the fall of most of the great empires of the world. Conservatism (more accurately neo-conservatism) is doing exactly this to our country.

    On the subject of national security, if anyone thinks that further isolating the rest of the world with a hawkish cold war rhetoric using president is going to keep us safer--you're wrong. If those of you who have stated nuclear war as an important voting issue you should be voting for Obama. He has recognized loose nukes as one of the most dangerous of all of our security issues. Ask most legitimate foreign policy experts and they would agree. Our security in the future will depend on our working with other nations which share our strategic interests--thorough diplomacy--not physical coercion. We can no longer depend on a strong over funded military to keep us safe--we a way beyond that.

    For me, the environment is probably the largest issue which will determine the manner in which I vote. We have to remember the disproportionate impact that the executive has on environmental policy compared to other branches of govt. The ability to drive policy within the federal agencies is HUGE. To have McCain make a pick like Palin means that he is not committed to a presidency that will recognize the environment as a top priority. I am disappointed that McCain would make such a clearly political choice. She doesn’t have the appropriate experience. She is way far to the political right. And her ideology appears to me to clash with McCain’s (we all know he is relatively moderate). McCain was also given a score of ZERO out of 100 by the League of Conservation voters for 2007.
  4. Mark Moore Just a Member

    Posts: 744
    Vancouver, Wa.
    Ratings: +70 / 0
    Geez, I had to look that up. Kind of reminds me of my divorce.:(
  5. Gorgefly Member

    Posts: 465
    Washougal, Wa.
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  6. Mark Moore Just a Member

    Posts: 744
    Vancouver, Wa.
    Ratings: +70 / 0
    Didn't get that far in college (which I am sure will answer a lot of questions for some of you),
    I was too busy earning a living, building a business, paying taxes, raising my son and missing out on a lot of fishing. So what I believe is what I have OBSERVED Not what some way too far to the left PolySci professor, ya know the kind who has never had to balance a budget, provide real jobs for real people or decide who to lay off when the economy inevitably slows down, taught me. The kind of guy whose idea of dealing with the economy is to raise taxes and promise everybody a job working for the government. BTW my business partners' life long best friend is Iranian and thinks my estimation of Jimmy Carter is charitable. No exception to my criticism of Ronald Regan?:beathead:
  7. Mark Moore Just a Member

    Posts: 744
    Vancouver, Wa.
    Ratings: +70 / 0
    Your assertion that, "We have to remember the disproportionate impact that the executive has on environmental policy compared to other branches of govt. The ability to drive policy within the federal agencies is HUGE" neglects to recognize the real intractability of these agencies. They are staffed with overwhelmingly left leaning civil servant bureaucrats who frequently ignore or undermine the directives of the Executive. Almost as much so as the State Dept.
    I'm guessing that foreign policy experts who assert that "the only thing Jihadists respect is absolute strength and a willingness to use it" are illegitimate? I assure you that Jihadists don't give a shit about diplomacy.
  8. sportsman Active Member

    Posts: 809
    Kirkland, wa., 98034.
    Ratings: +80 / 0
    A nice little story, mostly rhetorical, but OK. Does nothing to explain your previuos statement and outlook on one of the more remarkable 20th Century Revolutions we have witnessed: not driven by the religious right but by their religious leaders! Who can forget the spectacle of the Ayotolla Khomeini on his journey from Paris and his reception when he made it to Iran?! I was no fan of Carter, did ok on domestic, but was a boy lost in the international commuinity and certainly not capable of empowereing[or deposing] anyone! My professor was the owner of the fishing vessel in AK while we were feeding the worlds hungry---NOT, but we were contributing to the GNP and making some good money at the same time!
  9. Steven Green Hood Canal Pirate

    Posts: 517
    Poulsbo, Washington
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Ha!
  10. Keith Hixson Active Member

    Posts: 1,507
    College Place, Washington
    Ratings: +55 / 0
    I really wish this thread would be shut down. I come here to discuss fly fishing and fly tying. There are dozens of political discussions sites. If I want political discussion I will visit one of them. I just hate it when a non-political site becomes polluted with politics beyond it original intent. But this has gone way past the intent of the thread.

    Keith
  11. Mark Moore Just a Member

    Posts: 744
    Vancouver, Wa.
    Ratings: +70 / 0
    We can debate whether or not Carter withdrawing US support for The Shahs' regime resulted in his displacement or not but I concede your point that the return of Ayatollah Khomeini did result in at least one Spectacle- 9/11/2001
    The whole "Carter did OK on Domestic" speaks for itself, with double digit inflation,unemployment, and high double digit home mortgages to go with 70% marginal tax rates.

    As far as feeding the world, we certainly have missed a few hungry mouths in our imperfect history, but we've done a helluva lot better than say, IRAN. What Kills me about that argument is that it's OK for us to have the responsibility of feeding the rest of the world just not protecting it.
  12. Mark Moore Just a Member

    Posts: 744
    Vancouver, Wa.
    Ratings: +70 / 0
    Out of respect for Keith and anyone else who thinks this has gone too far, I am happy to continue in PM, otherwise I'm done.

    In the immortal words of the great philosopher Rodney King "can't we all just get along":beer2:?
  13. Daryle Holmstrom retiredfishak

    Posts: 2,572
    Mount Vernon, WA
    Ratings: +106 / 0
  14. Flyborg Active Member

    Posts: 2,313
    Kalama, WA
    Ratings: +604 / 0
    I've been trying to find an excuse to work that in for a while. This thread seemed the most appropriate :)
  15. dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Posts: 4,104
    Near the Fjord
    Ratings: +570 / 0
    Political discussions are ok. This has been related to a fishery issue. Besides, if you all turn to Page 2 of this thread, you will find a STINKING AD for John McCain! Can you imagine that on a fly fishing site?!!!! :D

    Fly Fishers for OBAMA
  16. Derek Day Rockyday

    Posts: 567
    Olympia
    Ratings: +146 / 0
    I did not neglect the fact that the agencies don't turn over as quickly as the executive(thank you T Roosevelt). The fact remains that the executive gives the left leaning civil servants the framework through which they must opperate. If you think that these subversive agency lefties are really so powerful--take a look at the way the Bush admin has undermined the effectiveness of so many of our agencies. All agencies are also not created equal--you will find different cultures across different agencies, and not all of them are full of the ubiquitous left leaning subversives ie Army Corps.

    As to your worry about jihadists. More people have died in our fight to protect the american people from jihadists than were killed by jihadists in the first place. You can't fight a grassroots, small scale, dispersed movement with a tool as unweildy and unsophistocated (by which I mean it is not adept at solving what is inherently a social issue) as the US army. Jihadists are as emboldened by our "absolute strenght" as they are frightened by it. Diplomacy is important because the way to fight these movements IMHO is to engage and include radical groups in the political process. You will find that the political process has a moderating effect on raical groups--see Hamas.

    I don't think that we need this thread to be shut down. Anyone who has spent any time of this site could tell you exactly what this thread is going to contain. it's not like you've opened a threat titled "Fishing Report" to find it has devolved into a political debate. You know what you're in for as soon as you read the title and see how many pages the thread has run. I don't really believe that anyone opened this thread expecting to find a fishing report or a review of a new fly tying vise.

    I do think that we should start to bring this discussion back within the scope of the question that was posted--mostly for the sake of those who are reading this to find out more information about Sara Palin's environmental record. I don't think we can with a clean conscience argue a fundamental link between Gov. Palin's env record and the issue of radical islam--so we should probably save that discussion for a different venue.
  17. gt Active Member

    Posts: 2,616
    sequim, WA
    Ratings: +6 / 0
  18. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Posts: 7,138
    Not sure
    Ratings: +1,228 / 0
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    Like it or not, politics plays a major role in our everyday lives as well as in shaping the policies and decisions that directly impact our sport.

    While yes, there are other sites that are more specific to political discussions, most are partisan and attract only supporters of that particular stripe. Mostly R's tend to listen to Rush or Michael Medved while mainly D's read the Daily Kos.

    The beauty of this forum is that our passion for flyfishing cuts across partisan lines, thus allowing direct interaction between participants.

    I think that all in all, this discussion has been remarkably civil, especially compared with some of the flame wars in the past. Let's keep it that way and not give Chris a reason to shut it down.

    K
  19. herl Member

    Posts: 877
    the other washington
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    Well, as the thread starter :eek: I think I got my answer in the first page or so. Actually I googled it right after I posted and found pretty much the same thing - probably should have done that 1st..

    The synopsis seems to be that she has not taken a strong position on the Pebble Mine, per se. But generally seems to be pro-mine, pro resource 'development'.

    That could be seen as a direct threat to the conservation of wild AK, or as her voicing the will of the AK majority. ..And I'm not sure there is a lot of difference between the two.

    At any rate, it seems doubtful that either, Dems or Repubs, if elected, will take any direct action against the mine. And it also seems doubtful that removing her from AK would lead to any change in the state's stance on the mine.

    ..So I guess this is a non-issue in the general election. Or at least, that's my take on it.

    Chris, if you want to close and/or delete this tread, that is fine by me. Seems as though there are some folks itching to sound off on politics, so maybe this is a good thread to allow them to get it out of their systems ..or maybe there are better places, outside WFF?

    PS: after 4 years on WFF, I can't help but be a little proud of starting my first bone fide
    mega-thread :beer1:

    Eric
  20. Andrew Kirkland cuttlover

    Posts: 59
    Bellingham, Wa,
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Unfortunately for Fyrwood, we live in a Liberal Democracy (look it up), the movement to bring our country to the right over the past 28 years has little to with true conservatism and more of a power grab for the uber rich pulled off by an appeal to the socially conservative evangelical crowd who make up the base and vote on two issues. The biggest problem with this is that the issues important to me national security, the environment, etc. are turned into a culture war between elites and commoners (which makes no sense because the uber rich/elite are the ones writing the policy for the republicans) where nothing substantial gets accomplished--are current inability to improve our salmon and steelhead populations directly reflect this.
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