Giorgio Benecchi & Orvis thread sizes.

Discussion in 'Fly Tying' started by TheShadKing, Dec 11, 2004.

  1. TheShadKing Will Fish For Food

    Posts: 261
    Bellevue, WA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    I have determined that by volume, Giorgio Benecchi's 10/0 is basically the same size as Orvis's 8/0.

    I still like the GB thread significantly better, because it feels considerably stronger, especially under friction, than the Orvis ... roughly equivalent to Danville's 6/0 ... of course this is a completely subjective measurement ... like how frequently the Orvis thread shreds and breaks when I'm tying with it. :mad:

    Again non-scientifically -- because I don't have any full bobbins of Danville's threads -- the GB 10/0 does appear to be significantly smaller than the Danville 6/0 -- but only based on how small the heads on my flies end up being.

    My work follows.

    Hokay -- y'all forgive me for this, but sometimes my engineering side overcomes my native laziness and I end up doing research that may be useful for somebody. I was getting really annoyed with the Orvis thread, and was curious to know whether or not part of the issue was the size of the thread, or the multi-stranded nature of GB's thread.

    An Excell spreadsheet of the below data is available to anybody who wants it, just PM me.

    Having just bought some new bobbin spools for my Norlander automatic bobbin, I happen to have two empty thread spools, one Orvis and one GB. I measured the height & diameter of each spool at several locations around the spool.

    I did the same measurement at several locations of one spool each of Orvis 8/0 and 10/0, and GB 10/0.

    It is interesting but probably of no relevance that the Orvis spools are not very round, but the thread is very evenly spooled. The GB is the opposite -- very round spool but the thread is not evenly spooled -- hills and valleys.

    Since I did not think to do this experiment before spooling the thread, my work suffers from a potential issue in that the size of the spools of the measured threads may be different from the empty spools. I’ll update these results when I spool the thread … something I probably won’t do with the Orvis thread because I just basically can’t stand tying with it.

    As a last step, I converted the GB to a 100 yard equivalent -- it's a 100 meter spool. The average of my measurements – all figures in inches / cubic inches – are:

    Orvis thread spool width ...... 0.978
    Orvis thread spool height ..... 0.909
    GB thread spool width ......... 0.807
    GB thread spool height ........ 1.091

    .............................Width .. Volume
    Orvis 8/0 ............... 1.011 ... 0.030
    Orvis 10/0 ............. 0.995 ... 0.016
    Average GB 10/0 .... 0.837 ... 0.033
    GB 10/0 100 yds .... 0.766 ... 0.030

  2. Norm Frechette Active Member

    Posts: 602
    Norwich, CT
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    WOW! :confused: I'm at a loss for words! What does that prove?
  3. TheShadKing Will Fish For Food

    Posts: 261
    Bellevue, WA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    Uh, I wasn't really trying :ray1: to prove anything ... I was simply doing a quick comparison to satisfy my intellectual curiosity and to see if my :beathead: utter failure to be able to tie with Orvis's 10/0 (which, as probably wasn't clear above I was breaking ... not the 8/0) was due to my inability bawling: or perhaps the threads really weren't the same size.

    I'm happy to report ... that Orvis 10/0 is in fact half the size of Orvis 8/0 ... which is the same size as Benecchi's 10/0.

    Maybe that helps?

  4. Old Man Just an Old Man

    Posts: 21,630
    Dillon, Mt
    Ratings: +1,659 / 0
    Boy,I'm sure glad that I'm a simple tyier. I use Danville 6/0 and 8/0. don't use 12/0 because I'm to hard of a puller. But 8/0 makes a very small head for my type of tying.

  5. Norm Frechette Active Member

    Posts: 602
    Norwich, CT
    Ratings: +77 / 0
    Phew! I guess thats why I tie strictly with 8/0 UNI thread. Nothing else to worry about.
    Joe Goodfellow likes this.
  6. Zen Piscator Supporting wild steelhead, gravel to gravel.

    Posts: 3,076
    Missoula, MT
    Ratings: +13 / 0
    Benecchi thread is the best type i have ever used. I have placed an order for 5 more spools today. It is a gel spun thread so it is very very strong for its size.

  7. Tim Cottage Formerly tbc1415

    Posts: 1,686
    Outer Duvall
    Ratings: +244 / 1
    KevinLS likes this.
  8. TheShadKing Will Fish For Food

    Posts: 261
    Bellevue, WA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    That's a good article.

    There's now only two things about thread I don't understand. :confused:

    1.) Why denier is proposed as a thread measurement ... when denier is a weight measurement ... and therefore can't be used to compare threads of different materials.

    2.) Why, when I repeated my experiment with the GB 12/0, did it show that my GB 12/0 was just slightly larger than the GB 10/0. :eek:

    Actually, I'm now convinced that the thread stops used by the manufacturers are probably mechanical, i.e., like the ones on most sewing machines, and if I really care to find the thickness of a given thread, I'm actually going to have to measure the length of said thread.

    The good news is that I'm getting better at both the Orvis 10/0 and the GB 12/0 for my size 20 mayfly ... which is looking pretty good ... I just need some trout to do durability testing on. :beer2:

  9. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Posts: 7,136
    Not sure
    Ratings: +1,225 / 0
    There was an interesting article along this same line in a recent issue of Fly Tyer. The author stated a compelling case for a standardized measure of thread diameter from ALL manufacturers. If I remember correctly, he measured thread marked the same size (ie. 6/0) from a variety of makers and found that each one was a different size.

  10. TheShadKing Will Fish For Food

    Posts: 261
    Bellevue, WA
    Ratings: +4 / 0
    Right -- I saw that article.

    The author is one of the people who suggest denier as a standard measurement ... which, one again, I don't get since you can't use it across thread types (e.g., nylon vs. polyester, or worse, a blend.)

  11. Davy Active Member

    Posts: 2,021
    SIlverton, OR
    Ratings: +16 / 0
    Has anyone used the Gudebrod 10/0 ?? The colors sure seem a good match for alot of the small fly hatches in NoCal.thanks.
  12. Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

    Posts: 3,986
    Olympic Peninsula
    Ratings: +654 / 0
    I think that Orvis thread IS Uni thread. :confused:
  13. CaptAhab New Member

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  14. CaptAhab New Member

    Posts: 2
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I must apologize; I am not a computer person.
    Is the Excell spreadsheet, to which referred in your 12/11/2004 submission, still available?
    If so, how should I email/contact you to request a copy?
    Thank you,
  15. silvercreek Active Member

    Posts: 359
    Ratings: +207 / 0
    You asked why use denier? Because for identical materials, the denier standard correlates with breaking strength for true diameter better than the "/0 Aught" size system which has no standard for what an "/0 Aught" measures.

    Threads are like hooks. Each manufacturer seems to have it's own system for labeling. I like the Denier system rather than the "/0 Aught" system because that is consistent with thread mass. One manufacturer's 8/O is another manufacturer's 11/0. Same diameter but the 11/0 makes you think it is thinner and has less mass.

    One company that plays this game in tippet labeling is Varivas. A 9X tippet should be .002" diameter and a 11X tippet is nonexistent since X size is defined as .011 " - X size/1000 = tippet diameter. Why then does Varivas have a 11X and 12X tippet and their other tippets are thicker than the definition?

    Varivas Tippet

    A tying thread company that does that is Bennichi. Note that their 12/0 is about 70 denier as is Uni 8/0 and Gudebrod 8/0, all are polyester and have about the same breaking strength ay 15 oz. For GSP threads - Wapsi 50 GSP, Unicord 12/0, and Benecchi Ultra Strong all at 50 denier and near identical strength.

    There is no free lunch in threads when identical materials are used. You will notice that threads made from identical materials of the same denier have near identical strengths from manufacturer to manufacturer.

    Denier determines strength and diameter regardless of what the "Aught" diameter labeling says.



    I choose thread based on whether the thread is flat or twisted, on material and denier which determines diameter and strength.