Grande Ronde HELP 11/2-11/4

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Nate Dutton, Oct 29, 2007.

  1. PT

    PT Physhicist

    Same old same old. Read between the BS in this thread and it's still just a bunch of Bull Sh#t! Guy asks a question and we turn it into the same old song and dance.

    Maybe I should just stick to the classifieds for a while..
     
  2. Steelie Mike

    Steelie Mike Active Member

    I was talking about where fish hold while traveling and not weather they will move up or down in the water column to intercept a fly. If the fish will not move to the top then you might as well put it in their face. I have been fishing low water presentations all year and have had lots of success with them. I also get to see fish holding in small water move to a fly a lot on my local rivers. FYI the Snake and Ronde were very good to me this year at all levels of the water column.
     
  3. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

    The reason you are confused is that nobody ever said they were the same thing. The discussion was more about the reason that nymphing is frowned upon.

    I was trying to clarify that nymphing to the modern fly fisherman is a different thing than nymphing 80 years ago.

    According to most people, purists only "swing" for steelhead and think "nymphing" is a bad thing. THIS IS NOT ENTIRELY TRUE!

    It is the "jig with tampon" rig that is the problem because it puts fish down, is tough to cast, is hardly traditional et cetera.

    It is THAT setup which gives nymphing for steelhead a bad rap.

    Heavy fly, indicator, those are the things which purists loath NOT simply the dead drift........which seems obvious to me but I suspect not so to some people around here.


    JUST READ BELOW

    Is it alright to qoute one's self?

     
  4. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

    PT, quit being such a baby.. jesus!

    Actually this is a pretty productive discussion in my opinion. I think the guy got what he was looking for, and the discussion has evolved into a discussion based upon something that hasn't really been touched upon here: nymphing with sink tips vs. swinging, or, can you nymph with a sink tip? I don't see a (typical) moral argument here, though Jbueler seems hell bent on making his point, which nobody seems willing to bite on. Put it down dude. Fuller and others.... You can dead drift nymph with a sink tip. Try to picture it in your minds eye. It just requires mending to keep the sink tip in the lower water column inline with the rest of the line. The subsurface tip doesn't have to get swept away from under water hydraulics. I'm speaking from experince... fishing the same water, reaching the same fish with the tip, that my leader would connect with when high sticking or indicator fishing.
     
  5. fullerfly

    fullerfly Calvin Fuller

    "Yes all fishing of sink tips is "nymphing"...."

    Wouldn't "nymphing" be imtitating a bug in the nymph stage of it's life. So if one weren't swinging a nymph technically this wouldn't be nymphing. It would be swinging.

    I disagree when you say all fishing with sink tips is nymphing...but then that is just the wording...so this is going to go nowhere.

    Panhandle, I may begin to see how you can dead drift a nymph with a sink tip, that is how we use to bead fish clients in AK on extremely windy days from a boat. I just don't know why anyone would want too. If you actually had a dead drift it would last much shorter than with an indicator and long leader due to water influence on thicker line vs. thinner line. I am not saying that you can't nymph with a sink tip, the dead drift just isn't as true.

    This is my experience.

    cal
     
  6. Rayne Rivers

    Rayne Rivers Member

    "The original definition of nymphing was fishing sub-surface period" - ?!?!? What happened to the "wet fly swing"?!?! I do believe that flyfishing is a bit more than 80 years old.
     
  7. JS

    JS Active Member

    Look what you have done nate! You created a monster.........hahaha. Get it, its halloween
     
  8. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

    All of you guys are missing the DAMN point I am trying to make by a FREAKING mile. God damn I hate this internet and its limited ability to communicate the main point.

    The reason nymphing for steelhead gets a bad rap is because when people say,

    “I will be nymphing for steelhead today.”

    they mean: I will be using a strike indicator and a heavy fly.

    THAT IS MY MAIN POINT!

    I only bring this up because people are always arguing SWINGING vs. NYMPHING as if one is more proper than the other.

    What is NOT traditional are heavy flies and strike indicators and NOT nymphing.

    If you are nymphing with a sinking line and a typical fly than you aren’t doing what many frown upon….PERIOD.

    Do you guys understand me now?


    Now to the quotes:


    I never said it wasn’t………….All I said was that 80 years ago nymphing meant fishing subsurface PERIOD. 80 years ago there weren’t even sinking fly lines.


    You are right. But once again, in the traditional sense all subsurface fishing is nymphing. As I tried to make clear above, my point was to clarify why nymphing for steelhead gets a bad rap and not what is and isn’t nymphing. I did go on a tangent about how even swinging is technically nymphing (IMO) just because I think it is interesting, I shouldn’t have because it caused confusion.

    Also, your definition of nymphing being imitating an insect in that stage of life is a good one and should probably be what nymphing means but it isn’t. Most guys I see nymphing with a strike indicator and a nymph are using bright pink colored fleshy flies and they would not call them nymph flies even though they would call that type of fishing nymphing.

    Not what I was arguing. I can nymph with any setup I want to. Like I said above: my point was to clarify WHY NYMPHING FOR STEELHEAD GETS A BAD RAP.

    I am obviously hell bent and I think people are always misunderstanding over the internet so it is really hard to clarify semantically complicated things such as this.

    Again I just want to clarify WHY NYMPHING FOR STEELHEAD GETS A BAD RAP.

    So in the form of a question:

    Q: WHY DOES NYMPHING FOR STEELHEAD GET A BAD RAP?

    A: IT DOESN’T! PEOPLE WHO NYMPH FOR STEELHEAD WITH HUGE HEAVY FLIES AND STRIKE INDICATORS GET A BAD RAP.

    I rest my case..........:p
     
  9. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

    Dude, You are high on Crack!

    If all fishing with sink tips is nymphing, then deductive reasoning would say all fishing with floating line isn't? If it isn't then what the hell is it?

    80 years ago? 80 years ago a pot was something you cook in, now it's something you smoke. The language and definitions from 80 years ago? wtf? I suppose floating line with a hairwing "under the surface" is nymphing as well with your definition, because it's not on the surface, it sinks.

    The forefathers you mentioned knew all about nymphing, and abhorred it. Robert Haig Brown knew of nymphing and said more fish would be caught on a piece of yarn (egg fly) than anything else. He just chose not to go that route, because it resembled gear fishing/bait to much.

    There is swinging, and there is nymphing. Two completely seperate forms of flyfishing. All your semantics and word play isn't going to change that. Nice try though.

    Peace

    Justin
    __________________
     
  10. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

    NO it wouldn't! You can fish a sinking fly on a floating line (nymphing) but you can't fish a floating fly on a sinking line. Your reasoning is WRONG.

    I agree with you completely there. But I still think that our forefathers used nymph imitations and nymph fished them under the surface. Just not yarn flies, big heavy flies, and strike indicators.

    I am sorry to say this but you are the one who is smoking crack. Again YOU MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY!

    Seriously read my post above if you still think that my main point is that all fishing subsurface is nymphing than you are smoking crack. I should just edit those posts to clarify them. The whole thing about fishing with a sinking line always being nymphing was just a side thought. Just trying to point out a traditional perspective.

    Again, did you even read and comprehend my last post?

    Here is a brief:

     
  11. fullerfly

    fullerfly Calvin Fuller

    j,

    Nobody really cares about your original post anymore...don't you see that. We are all arguing that "swinging" a fly under the surface of the water is NOT "nympying." No matter if you are using sink tip or not. Nypmphing, in my mind, is defined as a "dead drift" swinging would be the opposite...not a "dead drift."
     
  12. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Yes you are right. I agree with all of you.

    I give up.

    I guess I will go back to my crack pipe now :confused:
     
  13. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

    So you are smoking crack? I knew it! :eek:
     
  14. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

    Weather you can or can't, that is not the point, you just said anything under the surface is considered nymphing. Oh, and you can fish muddlers (floating flies) on sink tips.


    Yep I read it, and I comprehend it. You are trying to lump the two together by using terminology and definitions that just don't jive. If you are saying one thing and meaning another thing, well, then you just don't comprehend yourself. :rofl:

    In post 25 you make your point, but in post 30 you introduce your blanket statement "Yes all fishing of sink tips is nymphing", while trying to clarify and support your "point". All the other stuff about indicators and bad rap and forefathers, is seperate, yet you are using that to try to support your original statement in 30. You introduced an absolute statement, you didn't say it was sort of like, or kind of like, or close to, or similar to etc, you just said it is what it is Period. Then you go on to support it more in post 30.

    I'm just disagreeing with your terminolgy, definitions, and reasoning behind your statement in post 30.

    Peace
     
  15. David Dalan

    David Dalan 69°19'15.35" N 18°44'22.74" E

    I am so sorry I mentioned the use of plus size strike indicators...NOT :rofl:

    This is funny stuff.

    Seriously...I have NEVER stood on the side of a river or lake and thought to myself...

    "Shall I now commence with nymphing? Pehaps I should Wet Fly Swing? Oh...a good Grease Line presentaion would be delightful as well...what SHALL I do?"

    What's my point?

    You do what you want to do (always remembering it pays to be a good neighbor) and don't sweat what other folks think of how you fish. Period.

    Now, as to our topic at hand...I think nymphing encompasses any presentation that presents a fly at a dead drift. Notice I said presentation...how you do it (indicator, floating line, sink tip) is irrelevant to me. And of course this is MY definition. Nobody has to agree with it. So by virtue of my own definition, nymphing is not exclusive to any rigging method. The converse is also true (again IMO). I could definitely swing with an indicator (no different than a swung dry and dropper...except I wont hook anything hitting the surface portion), sink tip or floading line.

    I say this not to argue with any specific post in this thread, but rather to satisfy the need to see my own opinons in print. :cool:
     
  16. Nate Dutton

    Nate Dutton I'm a teacher, I fish to eat!

    ohhhhhh Lord this is one of the best hi-jacked threads over nothing that i have ever seen! and to think...I am the one who created it....Kinda brings a tear to my eye! Thanks for the info boys keep it coming!! And don't worry about the Hi-Jacking it is really entertaining!!!
     
  17. PT

    PT Physhicist

    I'm actually kind of pissed.;) Someone called me a baby for pointing out that you were asking a pretty simple and specific question and it evolved into THIS!:thumb:

    Nate, go back to page 1 and you might find what you were initially looking for.

    Good luck and please either post a report or PM me. I might be heading over soon but won't reveal the methods that may or may not be used or whether or not a hatchery fish might find itself with a bit of a dent in it's skull...:p
     
  18. inland

    inland Active Member

    Mike,

    I went back and re-read your point about only getting stragglers in the 'in-between water'. Go and read Riveraddicts (in case you aren't sure who that is = Ed Ward) recent posts on the speypages (under the tread titled 'midwater steelhead')- he eloquently discusses the exact points we are talking about. When it comes to sink tip fisherman I am not sure there is a more qualified individual. His findings are in DIRECT conflict with what you seem to say as fact. I would pay CLOSE attention to the reality that steelhead RISE to take flies. Even those presented on a tip somewhere in the column besides the rocks or hittin 'em in the head. A trait that is in large part what makes them a great gamefish.

    Tall-

    Roger Haig Brown??? Who is that? Might I suggest you ACTUALLY read Roderick Haig Brown? Could even influence your angling life.

    William
     
  19. Sloan Craven

    Sloan Craven Active Member

    Two unsupported conflicting opinions on technique? Who would have thought that could occur in fishing? :rofl::rofl:

    I think it would be wise to not just dismiss Mike's thoughts on steelheading, if you are interested in catching steelhead.
     
  20. g_smolt

    g_smolt Recreational User

    Y'all get "het up" over some small taters...

    Go ask the fish. I'm gonna, on the Ronde in about a week or so...

    I'll bet they don't care, either.

    IMHO,
    Mark