Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by zen leecher aka bill w, Jan 8, 2013.
Let's just cut straight to it... We all have a man crush on Darryl.
I think that "firing across the bow" belongs in the birth control thread, not the gun control thread..
I know of nothing that could put a total halt to gun violence. Certainly not the feble proposals that the Prez floated today. But rather than focusing on childish parameters such as whether a gun closely resembles one that would be issued to a modern soldier, it might be more productive to look at another issue - or rather, non-issue, since it's never mentioned. What about the effectively unfettered access to and possession of guns by people who, supposedly, aren't supposed to have them.
Example: Notoreuz, age 26 and a gang member since puberty, is paroled from his most recent stretch in prison, back to his grandmother's home in Chicago or East L. A. As a convicted felon, he is of course prohibited from owning firearms. So imagine the public shock when, a few weeks later, he is arrested during a shootout/robbery at a neighborhood convenience store or shooting from a moving car a rival gang member. However, there he is in the police headlights, gun in hand. How could that have happened?
Actually, nobody is surprised. And yet, nothing whatsoever was done to prevent him from rejoining his criminal subculture. In actual practice, society decided to treat him according to the Honor System. Since we can be certain that most of the younger males in his neighborhood are armed to the teeth, why aren't police and parole officers combing through every room of every building there, including under his grandmother's mattress, every few days on a random but systematic basis? Before you rejoin: "But the constitution protects citizens against unreasonable and arbitrary searches," I respond: "Unreasonable? Sez who?"
Just food for thought. I just read that the Newtown shooter didn't even carry the assault rifle into the school. He had 4 handguns. The AR15 stayed in the trunk of his car.
Here is an article that talks about some of the statistics of murder and "Mass" murder.
For those that don't want to read the entire article here is some stats from it.
“We tracked 62 mass shootings wherein 5 or more people were either shot or killed from the early 1980’s to now; 41 times pistols were used, 12 times shotguns or some type of hunting-styled rifle was used, and 9 times semi-automatic rifles were used (14 percent),” Hunter told TheBlaze.“Of the 62 incidents that we were able to track, 42 of the shooters had some kind of mental illness or mental illness history of some kind, 16 of the shooters had unknown or unclear history of mental illness, and only 4 of the shooters had no mental illness history.
“Chicago, Illinois, has some of the country’s strictest gun laws, and because of this, some might think that it should be one of the safest cities in the America. However, in 2012, 1.5 people were killed every day after being shot by a bad guy with a gun. That makes 532 people killed in 2012 alone,” he adds.
News flash: Psychopaths will use whatever they can to inflict pain on people. Consider the following:
March 25, 2008, Sitka, Alaska: An 18 year killed 4 people with a 5-inch knife.
June 8, 2001, Osaka, Japan: A school janitor killed 8 children with a kitchen knife.
July 1, 2008, Shanghai, China: A man stabbed 6 police officers to death and wounded 4 others with a knife.
“According to the FBI’s website, during the time period between 2007 until 2011, there were 8,967 people that were murdered with knives or cutting instruments; during that same time period, there were 3,918 people that were murdered with either rifles or shotguns,” Hunter told TheBlaze.
And, of course, murderers aren’t restricted to just sharp objects and guns. Some have used explosives:
April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City, Okla.: Timothy McVay murdered 168 people and injured 680 when he blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building using, among other components, fertilizer.
May 18, 1927, Bath, Mich.: A man murdered 44 people, 38 of which were elementary school children. Another 58 were wounded when he blew up the Bath Consolidated School. To date, this is still the worst school massacre in US history.
November 1, 1955: John “Jack” Gilbert Graham murdered 44 people by planting a dynamite bomb in his mother’s suitcase that was subsequently loaded aboard United Airlines Flight 629. The bomb detonated shortly after takeoff.
September 11, 2001: Nineteen terrorists murdered nearly 3,000 people on American soil by intentionally flying passenger planes into the North and South towers of the World Trade Center complex in New York City and the Pentagon in Arlington, Va. A fourth plane was also hijacked and was intended to be crashed into the U.S. Capitol, but passengers overcame the hijackers and the plane crashed inShanksville, Pa.
June 8, 2008, Tokyo, Japan: A man drove his truck into a crowd of people, killing three. He then exited the vehicle and stabbed 12 people. In all, seven people were killed as a result.
April 30, 2009, Apeldoorn, Netherlands: A man intentionally drove his car into a group of people amassed for a parade. He killed six and seriously injured another 12 before dying from the crash himself.
Others blunt objects:
August 6, 2004, Deltona, Fla.: Four men decided to bludgeon 6 people using baseball bats because they wanted to steal an Xbox belonging to one of the victims. All of the attackers were old enough to buy firearms.
July 20, 2009, Sydney, Australia: A family of 5 was bludgeoned to death as they slept. Most likely baseball bats were used in the attack.
“According to the FBI’s website, during the time period between 2007 until 2011, there were 2,918 people that were murdered with blunt objects (baseball bats, hammers, etc.),” Hunter reminds us. “During that same time period, there were 1,874 people that were murdered with rifles.”
Where did you read that? Everything I heard and read (including direct from the police there) states that he used an AR15. Link to the evidence, please.
Beyond just statistics, remember that the psychological impact of these high-profile shootings are also very significant, as you've all probably noticed. It's not healthy for our society to have this kind of thing happen because of the terror it incites and the symbolism about what an uncivilized country we live in.
I am a gun owner but I can see the writing on the wall. The majority of those polled now want stricter gun laws. The NRA will fight any change but the majority of the public is against them. This time, the NRA has a big problem. First a nut case shooting up a movie theater and then another wing nut killing six year old kids... six year old kids. To fight any gun regulations gives the impression the NRA are aligned with a guy shooting 20 six year olds.
Like it or not, that is how the public sees it. The NRA will scream about the Second Amendment but the public will still think about 20 dead six year school kids.
It's not gun control,but rather people control.
These are the current EOs being sent to Congress for review. Found them a bit interesting and left my own comments...
1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.
Ok inter-agency sharing of data, can only be a good thing.
2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.
Ok define legal barriers? Do we not have the right to privacy? As well, doctors are restricted to patient privacy concerns unless public or personal safety are at risk. Seems like a deterrant from going to the Dr. as far as I am concerned.
3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.
Giving a gold star to state LE agencies for sharing information? Funny, there's already a system emplaced that was done among a number of LE agencies for themselves. Done so in spite of the FBI and their not wanting to share information with state agencies while they were conducting investigations. This is an issue that can be resolved with professional curtesies by the feds with local LE agencies.
4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.
Redundant and having already been done. Next.
5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.
I'm actually OK with this. If an instance where a firearm is legally confiscated by an LE agency for purposes other than by evidence use or a warrant from a judge to confiscate the weapon. However with the Patriot Act still in effect, I can see where this provision can be abused.
6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.
More redundancy to cover the 4th point of contact of FFL holders.
7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.
People are going to be stupid and irresponsible no matter what you do. Despite hunter safety programs hunters still get hurt by ignoring recommendations of these courses. Overall I'd say this is a waste of money.
8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).
More redundant waste of tax dollars. Like a company is going to put out a gun-lock that doesn't and risk being sued. Same goes for gun safes not protecting firearms in any conceivable home event.
9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.
Already being done, redundant.
10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.
GASP! You mean, the DOJ and FBI will share data with local LEs? THIS I strongly approve.
11. Nominate an ATF director.
12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.
I could've sworn we've covered this.
13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.
14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.
Uhm.... The data is already out there, and it is pretty clear the number one cause of gun violence is gang and drug related.
15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies.
Reasonable, I can go along with that. So long as the private sector is not punished for instead using their resources for R&D of better firearms, not better safeties I'm ok.
16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.
Uhm, no. Doctors ask if something hurts, not what I have in my house. It is a ten second question, but still should not be a provision here.
17. Release a letter to health-care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law-enforcement authorities.
Again about 99% of patient confidentiality agreements have these provisions. If legitimate concerns to patient or public safety are a concern, doctors have the right to inform local law enforcement.
18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.
You can do that sure, provide an incentive to hire on additional staff member. I still say allowing school staff to carry concealed at their discretion is more cost-effective.
19. Develop model emergency-response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.
I swear one of you must be talking into the president's ear because I proposed something eerily similar. However I'd rather local and state LE agencies be the one's responsible for developing these plans and executing drills, and then have them reviewed by peers. Make the fed's only interaction be merely as observers and assist with coordination efforts between agencies from out of state.
20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental-health services that Medicaid plans must cover.
Isn't the department of health responsible for such things, not the executive branch? Stay in your lane Mr. president.
21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.
Go for it. Not like the ACA and HIPPA are one of the biggest reasons you are now asking to raise the debt ceiling. Lets go for 250K of debt for every American!
22. Commit to finalizing mental-health-parity regulations.
Can you be more vague for everyone? Does my PTSD disqualify me from owning a weapon? It doesn't disqualify me from renewing my security clearance, so.....
23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.
Oh good grief!
My fellow gun owners, this isn't as bad as you thought it was gonna be. Here's the link where I got these from.
Nowhere did I see anything about semi-auto weapons, high cap magazines, and confiscation of weapons. This is a political move, make it seem to the frightened suburbanites he's taking a tough stance, but in reality is not accomplishing a whole helluva lot.
In answer to the thread title... WE DO NOT NEED ANY... thanks for listening.
That stuff will have to go through Congress. The president can't EO that through because it violates the second amendment. Congress will have to pass a law. I expect that they will.
#2 on that list bothers the fuk out of me. Currently you have to be convicted by a court or jury of your peers to loose your gun rights. Right now even that is broken and innocent people loose their rights every day. There's no due process in #2. Guess, from now on we'll all have to remember to never piss off a doctor.
From my perspective it concerns the sharing of information between Health Care professionals and Law Enforcement for the purpose of background checks and entering that information into a national database. My guess is it is related to emotional instability and mental health disorders.
I'd like to know how that pertains to conviction by a jury in the courts?
Lugan, in so far as the Newtown Shooter,
In the video skip to the 4:10 mark and hear a newscaster say that there were 4 handguns found inside the school and the AR15 was left in the trunk. If you skip to the 5:00 mark you can see a police officer removing a weapon from the trunk and operation the tell-tale rear mounted charging handle of the AR to clear the weapon.
Considering the majority of those polled indicated they wanted stricter gun laws after the six year olds were killed with a reported assault rifle, I suppose there is a chance that it is possible a bill might pass through Congress but considering the rift in Congress right now, I'd be surprised if such a bill did pass.
I don't believe Obama thinks such a bill will pass but he must have felt that he had to make an effort due to the public opinion in regards to nut cases killing massive numbers of people... especially six year olds. If no bill passes, I doubt if he'll lose any sleep over that fact. He never pushed for gun control when he was running for reelection. If it wasn't for the latest killings, I doubt if he would have even tried.
As far as if he used an assault rifle or handguns, it probably doesn't matter much. It isn't clear what the wing nut used in the school but the wacko was using an AR15 for sure at the theater.
Whatever he used fired a lot of shots in a very short period of time. As a gun owner, if they are going to ban guns, I'd actual rather it be an assault riffle than automatic handguns.
Assault rifles were banned before. It would have no effect on me personally if they were again. Banning automatic handguns would definitely effect me.
There is no Due Process. Any doctor can make a report that will bar someone from being able to purchase a firearm and no form of verifying the doctors claim has been provided.
To compare, currently a PFA (Protection From Abuse) can be filed by any one against any one. This will automatically remove the 2nd amendment rights from whomever was served the PFA if the court upholds the order. The person served has the right to contest the order and have his rights restored.
From what I've read, there is no legal recourse for a person being accused of being mentally unstable to contest a report from a doctor. Of course, I still haven't seen the actual executive orders. Like I said, don't piss off any doctors.
There's no "due process" these days anyway. If you're called a "terrorist" (whatever that is) by the government, they can toss you in jail forever with no legal council.
Besides, if my doctor wants to know if I own any guns I won't tell him and instead, seek out a different doctor.
I'm already hearing rumors that some Doc's are considering taking payment for services in ammo and hardware
First vampires. Then werewolves. Then vampires and werewolves. Now zombies. Other than watching grade B 1950 horror flicks, where are they getting this stuff?
You know...one of the things I like about this forum is the pretty high general degree of civility in these sorts of discussions. Frankly, I don't know why you let people like me in here.
As a former Jarhead (and don't give me a lecture on Marine's never referring to ourselves as 'former'....when the one thing we NEVER do is refer to ourselves as ex-Marines)...I have an affinity for guns, as well as concern for keeping such lethal tools out of the hands of dingbats.
Somehow, we let pandora's weapons box open to such people....and I haven't a clue how it could ever be shut again. Gun ownership is intrinsic to the American way...somehow we've got to solve this puzzle without violating that basic principle.
I've seen some NRA types (and i'm a member) argue that even felons should be able to possess guns. Sorry, but felons, and the mentally ill, simply can't be trusted with the responsibility. There's gotta be some balance.
Please don't park me Jerry.
Nice try. Newtown shooter - white middle class kid. Portland shooter - white middle class kid. Aurora shooter - white middle class kid. Columbine shooters - white middle class kids. Should we have the cops roaming through your neighborhood turning over your mattress to prevent the next one of these? Talk about childish solutions.
And pwoens, the story that he didn't use the AR15 was debunked about 2 hours after the massacre.