Hatchery brats: To bonk, or not to bonk?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Mingo, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. wboles3

    wboles3 Member

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    How do you tell the difference between a wild steelhead and the offspring of hatchery steelhead spawned in the river?
     
  2. jackchinook

    jackchinook Member

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    wboles,
    that's a great ?. DNA analysis is the only way I'm aware of...and it's a pretty involved process that requires having a 'baseline' DNA sample from the original stock in the river (i.e. before it was 'contaminated' by the hatchery stock).

    Anyone know any other methods?
     
  3. wboles3

    wboles3 Member

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    My next question would be " What was the origin of the original stock at the beginning of the hatchery program? Where they from wild stock?
     
  4. jackchinook

    jackchinook Member

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    depends on where you're talking about. Obviously, the first hatchery out there had to be based on wild broodstock. But some hatcheries use hatchery stock from elsewhere, some use only wild broodstock, many use a mixture of wild and hatchery. There are many types of operations out there.
     
  5. Porter

    Porter Active Member

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    Darwinism...? I'm not native but a mix of many things...and lived in a pen when young...wboles3 and jackchinook good simple q's w/o all the biological jargon. I was trying to make or ask similiar point in my first thread....you did better.
     
  6. wboles3

    wboles3 Member

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    I guess all original hatchery broodstock must have come from wild steelhead at one point in time. So, aren't they all steelhead? Its just that one is called "Wild" where the other is called "Hatchery". How are the genes different between the two?

    I think I should probably visit my nearest hatchery and get my other numerous questions answered.
     
  7. Desmond Wiles

    Desmond Wiles Sir Castaline

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    I tell you what Mingo, when I can actually catch a stealhead, wild or not, I will let you know what my opinion is! :beathead:
     
  8. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    Well, if Curt is in the fisheries business, more than likely he came from a fisheries background. Being a manager of something means you have to understand what you are doing, not just point and grunt. I personally don't know about Curts background, but based on that last post there wasn't anything contained within that seemed unreasonable. The entirety of the post basically stated that it is not a simple black and white issue. And frankley it's not. I may not have a wildlife degree, but my wife is a wildlife biologist and I've lived with her enough to know that balancing this whole mess we have is a *really* hard thing to do. In a lot of cases we have competing needs being served from the same resource, and more often than not, the almighty dollar is the winner.

    Sure thing ;) But based on this info you provided (which I snipped for brevity) why didn't you put it there in the first place? A lot of the points are relevant, and quite a few raise interesting statements that should be debated. I think this is one of those cases where presentation was a little splashy and chased away all of the fish!

    As for the whole problem of PS steelhead going to pot, I can basically say without a doubt it comes down to one word... POPULATION. Habitat sucks, people want to fish (and to catch and keep fish), and simply put we don't have enough natural resources in the area to deal with it. Simply making every river catch and release doesn't solve the issue when habitat doesn't exist. If we *REALLY* want to fix the problems here, we should sit at the borders with rifles and shoot anyone trying to get into our state... Oh, and don't forget the condom distribution to all middle school and older kids!

    -- Cheers
    -- James
     
  9. gordon

    gordon New Member

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    well if people want to catch and kill at an unsustainable rate then it is curt's job to suggest a closure or restriced fishery methods. You can't sit back with your finger in your but and say "nothin I can do". Habitat is an issue no doubt, but there were loads of people living here in the early 1990's and the steelhead were still here, the harvest continued, and so did the demise. blame everyone, just make sure you include those at WDFW.

    As for fishery managers, yes they know something, but in their world of simplified models they lack the plasticity to conserve

    Frankly I don't care if I scare people away. Like I said, this is only an internet board, nothing more.
     
  10. Willie Bodger

    Willie Bodger Still, nothing clever to say...

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    Actually, this one point, which I don't feel is a small one, is where I would say you are wrong. Yes, it is an internet board, but it is not 'just' an internet board. It is a developing community. Back in the day, before planes trains and automobiles (and computers), popuklated areas were more compact, less spread out. You saw your neighbors more, people hung out at places other than their computer and often didn't work as much as we do nowadays. Places like this are part of our desire to get back to that feeling of community, to share a common passion and to swap knowledge, stories, poke fun etc.. Now, I know that every community will have discord and that piece I really don't care to get into, but to say "It's only an internet board, what do I care" kind of misses the point.

    Willie

     
  11. Porter

    Porter Active Member

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    Well put Willie B ! ..and it's butt not but. (A finger in a conjunction...yuk!)
     
  12. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    No doubt poor management is a problem. But I still maintain that the population is still the single largest reason for the demise of the steelhead in Washington. Siltation of the rivers, encroachment of industrial areas into wetlands, water diversion for recreational use, pollution from run off, AND higher demand due to more people are what happened to steelhead (and salmon). Management of a degraded area can only get you so far.

    That seems like a gross simplification, perhaps even a simplified model of how the WDFW works. Quite a few folks that I know in fisheries sciences went to school to at least get a bachelars degree, and 2 of 'em went on to get a masters degree. I would say that the sophisticated statistics they do in the studies definately *aren't* simple models, but rather are accepted models used by a lot of wildlife science arms.

    As for the placicity, the biggest problem isn't necessarily the people, but the policy laid out. Some of it stems from poor choices in terms of management, but that's where the politics come in. Granted I would say that the lifting of moritoruim in Forks was a bad thing, but in general the people of Washington are the ones *asking* for this, and the WDWF has to respond. Unless we get some enlighted folks in charge that can either turn the tide of Washington residents to consider conservation more important, or are capable of handling the political turmoil without loosing their jobs, we need to focus on educating the people of Washington more than anything.

    I for one would like to find out how BC managed to get a lot of their policies enacted without having a redneck riot on their hands! Their resources folks in the last decade have definately instituted quite a few programs that would be considered blasphamy in the US.

    Well, I'd like to think that you have something to add. So far when you've made points, they have been salient and definately have been useful to think about :)
     
  13. gordon

    gordon New Member

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    James and others:

    I respect this community as a means for others, just not myself, although I do contribute from time to time I really don't plan on meeting anyone here ever. That isn't a shot, there are obviously some great people here. To me though, just a board full of people who I will never meet.

    James;

    The models used to sustain MSY in WA state are simple and antiquated, that is the bottom line. I don't have time nor do I want to spend much time typing about his topic. A degree is fine, hey all those scientists from Philip Morris have them too, many are doctors, doesn't mean what they say is worth a salt. WDFW has some good folks, habitat is an issue, but they have known for a long time population was going to increase and they never had the foresight to alter their management style. Forks streams are a great example, the Hoh run is declining but they continue to harvest. The pressure will now shift to the Quileute and inevitably with the increased pressure those runs will crash too and I will blame WDFW in large for this issue. The Tribe has a role, but we can't control that.

    As for WDFW managing as most people want, I don't think there is evidence for that. Latest polls of anglers show the majority want C and R of wild steelhead. Some Forks locals wanted catch and kill, WDFW wanted it also, so they got it. I understand the political mandate of WDFW is to maximize fishing opportunities and harvest, but they can interpret those words in many different ways. For example, you could only allow catch and release and that would maximize angling opportunity and the resultant harvest from those techniques would be considered the "harvest."

    Hey, this is complicated. No doubt. But to take responsiblity off the shoulders of those to manage is to take the same responsiblity off the shoulders of those who pollute our planet. Those who make the decisions are responsible to the greatest degree. At least in my view.
     
  14. Desmond Wiles

    Desmond Wiles Sir Castaline

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    Willie Bodger, you stoles the keys right off my board ;)
     
  15. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    All this posturing and flaming is moot...don't kill something you won't eat.

    That's my two centavo's...
     
  16. gordon

    gordon New Member

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    yeah well roper, kill it if it is going to hurt the wild fish, otherwise you will end up with only hatchery fish to fish for.
     
  17. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    Thanks for that very important feedback...:rolleyes:
     
  18. Porter

    Porter Active Member

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    Nice to see your name back on the posting board.
     
  19. TomB

    TomB Active Member

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    I'm with gordon on this one...if you don't want to eat it, give it away or use it in some other legal manner (don't you wish "nutrient enhancement" was a legal use for boot hatchery fish...if it was, that is the first place mine would go).
    -Tom
     
  20. gordon

    gordon New Member

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    What I am saying roper is that you pay for hatchery fish to be harvested so harvest them. Give them away as tom said, or throw them to the eagles. What the hell do you think WDFW does with them, they waste them, okay, so if it is fine for our government to throw away hatchery fish then it is fine for an angler to do it. Well sometimes the fish go to foodbanks and lots of other times they get tossed into a river or simply in the trash next to the hatchery. I ain't condondin' breakin the law, but can you resist the eyes of a hungry eagle or otter. Please, give back to the christian eagle/otter fund and feed an animal today!

    Remove hatchery fish and you will increase your chances of fishing for wild fish in the future. Let them go, and well you know the story.
     

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