Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dfl, Dec 16, 2012.
Do you have links you can share?
The Swiss info in that chart contradicts the info source listed in the footnote, which show higher homicide.
A 15 min session with Google will bring up many sources of data ranging from liberal and conservative US gun lobbies to international news sources, to the census data of various countries. Many are annotated with links to other source materials.
The main focus on threads on firearm violence have erupted after the mass shootings or attempted mass shootings. The increasing shout to restrict firearms is in response to that violence. So who is doing the violence? Not too much comment is offered for gang shootings unless it takes place in non-gang areas. So, what is the issue?
Mass shooters are usually young (mid teens to mid 20's), white or Asian, males, that are said to be above average intelligence, they are socially inept or personality disordered and/or have profound mental illness. They also signal their intent for acting out weeks or months in advance. That is where the problem festers.
Solution? I haven't got any idea, you cannot commit anyone to mental health inpatient hospitals or institution or mandate medications until they demonstrate harm to themselves or others. I do know that these individuals will get firearms, even if the weapons are illegal or they will use other lethal devices to act out (sarin gas I think was used in Tokyo subway attack, fertilizer was used in Oklahoma and is monitored but obtainable if someone is motivated, and gasoline is very available not monitored.). Even many of the "experts" will tell you it is virtually impossible to prevent mass murders if the perp is motivated.
I've had a few clients that were more than capable of doing mass murders, the only factor or parameter that didn't apply was they were in their 40's in age when I met them. The few I tracked over time ended up in prison for single murders. There are some really, really scary people walking around, I've seen them and known them. You really can't stop them.
I understand that a lot of people simply don't like guns, particularly black scary guns like the AR-15 and their gazillion round magazines. But do these rifles really pose an overarching threat to society?
We would do well to note that in 2011 FBI statistics show that rifles, all rifles whether they be bolt or semi-auto, were used in 323 homicides. In 2007 rifles were used in 453 homicides and each year leading to 2011 the number of homicides by rifle declined.
In 2011 more homicides were committed with shotguns than were committed with all rifles. This holds true every year back to 2007 but for one. This also was culled from FBI statistics.
Some have said violent crime is on the upswing. That's not born out by FBI statistics, for the past 4 years violent homicide has dropped.
The largest magazine I could find for a shotgun was 10 rounds, given that the shotgun in recent years is responsible for more homicides than the AR with it's ubiquitous 30 round magazine, how can one argue that the AR should be banned? Doesn't this indicate that magazine capacity isn't, at least a key, factor in the affect this rifle has on society.
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration from 2012 shows that everyday 27 people die in America as a result from drunk driving crashes. That means 9,855 die annually.
Given that drunk drivers kill 30 times the number of Americans than all rifles put together I have to ask, "where is the outrage for these deaths"? Where are the impassioned cries for auto interlock devices, breathalyzers at bars? Why is it the guy, who has no criminal background, who defends his right to own guns called a mouth breathing wing nut, but the guy who has 2 or 3 cocktails before heading home from work is just a part of the American fabric? My point being that we as a society are schizophrenic about the things we fear, "assault weapons" are in a class of firearm that were used in homicides 323 times in 2011, yet we will all attend Christmas parties where we know someone will be overserved and drive through our neighborhoods contributing to the more than 9,000 that will be killed by a drunk driver this year. It makes no sense.
What I see is a concerted effort to broad brush those who owns a gun as a socially irresponsible threat to society. When really there are many more seemingly innocuous threats to society that are widely accepted as the norm. I believe some people find it very easy to single out guns as a public health menace as they are intimidating, but all the while people die from other causes that are very easily dealt with but ignored as they're socially more acceptable or don't threaten one's world view.
I'm a proponent for reducing the number of violent crimes, but concentrating on an inanimate object and not the root causes of crime will not produce the desired results, that is unless the desired result is to disarm law abiding gun owners.
Mike, there IS outrage toward drunk drivers. In 1980 MADD was formed. MADD successfully passed federal legislation and accomplished other actions that have reduced drunk driving. It was (and is) a multi-faceted approach.
No one now is saying "ban all guns", or to just focus on guns and exclude other causes like mental health issues, violent media, etc. Like drunk driving issue, it's probably got to be solutions on multiple fronts. Hopefully those solutions will be sensible and fact-based, and not politicized toward EITHER extreme.
5 pages of replies. I haven't read through all of them so perhaps this has already been suggested.
Has anyone suggested concealed carry?
Concealed carry passed just about a year ago in Wisconisin. So far, there are no instances of a person carrying a permitted firearm killing or even shooting someone. However, just 2 weeks ago, in my city we had an episode of road rage in which two bullies forced a car off the road and started beating and trying to stab the driver of the car. He had a permit and a handgun. He used it to stop the attack, and called 911. He told 911 that he was holding the perps at gunpoint and that he had a permit.
He told the operator that he would place the weapon on his car seat when the police arrived. The police arrived and found the weapon on his car seat with the magazine removed, and the cartridge ejected. The victim was released, the perps are in jail.
So in this case, the law worked as intended.
There is NO evidence that concealed carry increases crime. However, there is disagreement as to whether it decreases crime.
"In reporting on Lott's original analysis The Chronicle of Higher Education has said that although his findings are controversial 'Mr. Lott's research has convinced his peers of at least one point: No scholars now claim that legalizing concealed weapons causes a major increase in crime.'"
It seems to me that concealed carry should be allowed for teachers and administrative staff in schools. I'm not saying we should force teachers to carry weapons; but for those that do have a permit, allow them to take their weapons into school. Even if the armed teacher only delays the perp, that delay can save lives.
We daily place our children in the care of these individuals. Should they not be allowed to use deadly force when they and their students are threatened with deadly force?
Is this not a reasonable response? We need to realize the fact that a no gun policy in schools does not provide any "protection" at all for students and staff. However, it does protects the perpetrator. He knows he will be the only person with a gun.
...or consider posting a cop at every school. Many high schools have a cop full time. Maybe we should have a cop full time at every elementary and middle school too. It would be expensive, but "freedom isn't free". Seems like protecting kids' right to learn in peace is a freedom worth paying for.
(repeat from the third thread now going on this topic).
I realize that no one on WFF is saying "ban all guns" I was seeking to put the legal ownership of an AR-15 and it's use in homicide into some perspective. My point is that if one is sincere about their desire to safeguard human life that demonizing this rifle should be a low priority.
In 2011 per the FBI blunt objects killed 496 people. Knives and cutting instruments killed 1,694. Total number of homicide by rifle 323.
Each day 2 children under the age of 14 die from accidental drowning, 730 a year. When will we hear Diane Feinstein introducing a bill to stop this scourge? Likely never...
There are codes that dictate fences around residential swimming pools, mandantory life jacket laws, and mandantory boater safety laws. All geared towards lowering the accidental drowning rate.
BTW: Your point about Rifle homicides being relatively low is correct, although the FBI doesn't seem to provide info on how many of those deaths involved Military style rifles. My gut feeling is that most of these style rifles are owned by gun nerds types who take safety very seriously.
In Switzerland, annual firearm homicides total
CompareRate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People
In Switzerland, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is
Switzerland CJ CTS/Eurostat Rate
Year rate Total
1998 - 1.1 - 76
1999 - 1.1 - 89
2000 - 1 - 69
2001 - 1.2 - 86
2002 - 1.2 - 86
2003 - 1 - 73
2004 - 1.1 - 79
2005 - 1 - 75
2006 - 0.8 - 60
2007 - 0.7 - 51
2008 - 0.7 - 54
2009 - 0.7 - 51
2010 - 0.7 - 52
Thanks for posting that
A week ago I visited the Jason Lee Middle School in Tacoma. This was one of the greatest programs for connecting with young people I have seen. Dale Chihuly is a hero! There should be a program like this in every city. What a cool thing:
Good Post Mike.
And you and Roper are exactly right, I'd love to see autolock devices and bar breathalyzers along with random breath testing of drivers. Jesus the amount of damage people do when drunk (let alone drunk and driving) is absolutely phenomenal- to themselves and those around them. (Cam Hood, Rich Foley, C Hole- RIP) In 2005 the OECD Members average driving fatalities were 9.5/100,000 and in the US- 14.5/100,000. Only the Greeks did worse than us. So we are behind there as well.
It would be easy to read through these threads and be insulted as a gun owner, as though the gun owners were somehow responsible. The concern though is are we cool with the status quo? Of folks going to malls, restaurants, schools and movie theaters to shoot people? If not how do we fix it? Similarly are we cool with folks driving drunk?
(I get it, drinking can be fun, most times it is; recreational shooting similarly, I ain't going to lie, some of my best memories are fueled in part with alcohol and the friends I was with at the time)
The same moralistic arguments folks have put up could be applied for drinking fatalities....They need religion, they need better parental support and supervision, the liberal media glamorizes drinking culture, they need a sense of accountability and responsibility because of the declining moral fabric of the society. They drink because of drinking video games (Ok maybe not that one)(Anyone tried taking their family to a Seahawks game lately?) But that's probably not the correct response.
I'd argue the correct response if you define the problem is to look for models where it doesn't happen or doesn't happen as much, and adapt your laws to the ones that possibly might work...
The only models for how to do those things are from other countries that do it better than us...
Stay safe, take your buddies car keys if he's trashed...
Post posting edit:
I read this depressing article later today. Turns out, in 2009, firearm related deaths in some states, including Alaska and Washington, Utah and Oregon, exceeded driving related deaths.
I've been doing a lot of thinking on this subject in the past few days, mostly due to the opinions, stories and research in this forum and I have come to the conclusion that no matter how much I read others opinions, It doesn't really change mine despite the fact that I do see others perspectives in a different light. Mike T, I think your point was eloquently put, even though I still see most weapons as useless in our society, but I do respect your opinion as it stood out to me as a valid.
One thing that I do know is that our culture seems to be more reactive than proactive. Another thing that stands out to me is that our forum members, whether they have a house full of guns or a shelf full of violent games would never consider committing such an atrocity.
So I submit to you, whoever you may be to use the one thing that unites all of us here as a way of helping our youth to stay in touch with the world around them. You don't have to be a master caster or a river guide to share your passion with a group of kids that may otherwise be left to their own devices. If your a gun enthusiast put up a flyer at the range, if a teacher start a club at school, if a gamer start a message board online. I know that while my friends were out getting in trouble after school I was going to get feathers at the feed store to tie flies.
You will never know if you truly prevented someone from becoming a mass murderer, and you may only be rewarded by having the altruistic feeling of mentoring a troubled kid, but to me that is enough. I know I have a couple spare rods that could be better put to use than sitting in a closet. And in just the time I've spent debating such subjects online I could have been thinking about how to engage someone who may not have anyone else to talk to.
I live in des moines, if anyone has an idea on how to further this idea let me know, I would love nothing more than to volunteer a couple days a month sharing my passion with the next generation
I think looking outside our borders at data describing the results of other countries' attempts to solve this issue has to be part of the mix.
In response to Pat Lat above:
Totally agree. I have certain viewpoints, and most of those viewpoints will probably stick with me.
I will say this: my views of guns and gun laws have definitely changed over the years. And I think that that is partly due to the fact that I have read a lot of interesting discussions from thoughtful individuals on this forum who fall on all parts of the political/cultural spectrum. I have a much greater appreciation for guns and why people care so deeply about them. There was a time when I would have simply said, "Get rid of the guns, no one needs them, etc, etc." I feel I know better now, and have a more well-rounded view of guns and gun control issues. And that is thanks to the many people on here who can thoughtfully and compassionately explain their views and ideas, no matter what side they are coming from.
So to those of you who have contributed thoughtfully, thank you.
Here is a very thought-provoking article from a former Special Forces guy about why he does not want himself and lots of others to start carrying concealed weapons in public: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-soldier-s-reply-to-connecticut-shooting.html
Makes me think of Coach Duff's admonishments several years ago to all of us on WFF every time there was a "which handgun to defend myself against tweakers and bears" thread. He said he was a special forces or similar veteran, and that in the chaos of a firefight, even guys with the best training screw things up big time, so expecting a civilian to shoot well that one time he/she is confronted with a crisis is a non-starter. I don't know how true that was (Coach was always a firebrand, after all), but reading this article reminded me of him. What ever happened to that guy, by the way? Banned? Or self-deported, so to speak?
Good post, Pat. Nice to bring it back to what we all share.
I am comfortable with the role of being the guy in my 7-yr old surrogate grandson's life who will stand between him and the computer game console and make sure he gains an appreciation of the natural world through experiencing it first hand. I know his working, single mom doesn't have the time or capacity to do that, and I certainly don't hold it against her; she's doing everything she can for him (including investing much of her meager earnings in a GET account for the college education she never had a chance to obtain). I worry for all the other kids of parents who are working so hard just to get by and put food on their table, and who are too often have the computer monitor or TV as baby sitter.
Let's make sure we're all doing our part one step at a time.
Coach Duff now has a bonefishing guide service on the island of Oahu, and if I recall correctly, he made a post (abut something or other) on this site earlier this year.