NFR How to prevent firearm based murder/s

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dfl, Dec 16, 2012.

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  1. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    AK powder monkey, please keep this civil. So far we've all managed to keep it civil and thus keep open three very interesting NFR threads. Don't blow it for us. Thanks dude.
     
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  2. mtskibum16

    mtskibum16 Active Member

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    Like Ed mentioned, there would be easy access out of the room - it's only locked to get in the room. The only thing that needs to be considered is a firefigher's ability to get in to a room for rescue or or something. I'm not exactly sure how that works, but there are plenty of places that have "normally locked from the outside" doors and meet all fire codes. Obviously a plan like this has plenty of details that need to be thought out and worked through, I was just offering the base suggestion.

    Oh, and I was saying two differnt options. The doors could be "normally locked" or there could be a gunshot sensor that locked the doors. The 2nd option is more complex and expensive, but it eliminates the fire/rescue concerns since the doors lock via a gunshot (not a fire) rather than being locked all the time. Either option should/could incorporate a seperate emergency alarm that would be pulled to alert the school of a lockdown.
     
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  3. Robert Easterday

    Robert Easterday Member

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    [​IMG]
    OECD = Members of Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
    Source: 12/20/12 NYT
     
  4. fifafu

    fifafu Guest

    double post
     
  5. fifafu

    fifafu Guest

    You and ed are correct locked doors from the outside is a good idea.
     
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  6. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    Looking at this data, a statistician would conclude that there is a strong correlation between guns per capita and gun crime per capita. The correlation isn't a perfect 1.0, but is still strong. That's what the math would say. The closest data points to "outlier" are countries like Switzerland and the Nordics have around 1/2-1/3 the gun ownership rates per capita, but far lower gun crime rates. So there is still some other moderating factor in play that separates the US from those countries and explains their lower gun crime rates relative to gun ownership. But the main correlating factor driving rates of gun crime is still gun ownership rate.
     
  7. wa_desert_rat

    wa_desert_rat Active Member

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    In regards to "securing" schools I have to wonder just how effective it would be. Besides the obvious effects of subjecting children to a prison-like atmosphere in a place where they are statistically far more safe than anywhere else, we also have to deal with human nature.

    My wife, who has worked in schools for a long time, tells me that even though doors are locked from the outside they have to be able to be opened from the inside. Teachers and other employees, being human, routinely use small rocks to keep those doors from closing (and locking) so they can fetch items from their cars or other buildings without a long walk to the main doors and then retracing steps back to their destination.

    Many of the suggestions here also seem to assume school buildings are a single structures whereas in reality that model is a rarity. Unless the community is not growing in population many schools are more of a "campus" than a monolithic structure. These schools have many entrances and exits because their design parameters did not include any necessity for a security lockdown. In fact, the single biggest requirement was safe and effective egress in the event of a fire emergency.

    Not to mention "portables".

    Disabled students also often need separate entrances and exits. Existing "main" doors are often at the top of a set of stairs or other impediments to students confined to wheelchairs or on crutches (or who aren't on crutches because they feel it makes them look "different" and prefer to walk; despite the difficulty).

    In addition, none of this will affect shootings in theaters, malls, parks, beaches, and other places. We simply cannot lock down the entire country and every public place.

    Much as I hate to say it, there are only two real alternatives here: 1) Better controls over access to guns; and, 2) Better and more effective ways of identifying people likely to do harm to others in a random violent manner.

    Craig
     
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  8. wa_desert_rat

    wa_desert_rat Active Member

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    Here is an interesting writeup about the Cho shooting in Virginia (32 dead). How do you make it easy for a seriously disturbed person to gain legal access to firearms? You write a state law that counters Federal law and apply that instead. You do not follow-up Judge's orders (not even the Judge himself). You give higher preference to "privacy" laws than you do to public safety. And more. And I hear that the same things were done in the Aurora, Colorado incident, too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho

    Craig
     
  9. Citori

    Citori Piscatorial Engineer

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    What is the correlation between mass violence and mental health? How about between violence and video game use? What would be the correlation between strength of family unit and incidence of violence? I don't know, or would even pretend to guess the answers, but I would like to see the data. I personally do not think "gun control" will make a bit of difference, but what the debate has done thus far has driven more guns into circulation than any other factor, whether it is now, or previously (Clinton/Reno for example). NRA memberships are increasing by about 8,000/day, the third highest single day gun sales ever (130,000 in one day reported by network news), lines out the doors of gun shops AND prices up 40-50% (personal observation). In my opinion, I am personally not comfortable with all of the folks I see standing in line to buy having guns, but it is what it is - and those are just the new weapons legally obtained with background checks... Even if gun controls were instituted today, I don't think anyone is advocating coming in to people's homes and taking their existing legal firearms away...

    Both recent events (CT and OR) were committed with legally owned firearms that were stolen from the legal owners.

    I don't see us finding a solution until/unless we address cause and effect, and quit focusing on the weapons. The ills of society are unlikely to garner votes for a particular party, so are equally unlikely to become the focus of debate, again IMO

    My $.02.
     
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  10. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    The data says that gun ownership rates are the #1 correlation to high gun murder rates, with the US in the lead on both. So like it or not, guns will be part of the focus in the coming weeks among policymakers.

    "Part" is the operative word. The data I have seen suggest that additional secondary factors are also in play. We do have a slightly higher rate of mental illness than comparable developed countries (someone posted that data in the 1st of 3 threads on this topic). I have looked for but not yet found any data indicating that our consumption of violent media and video games is higher than comparable countries, but I still intuitively think that must be closely examined.

    Then there are the squishier issues of religion/faith (the US is already #1 in faith statistics), and family strength (quite a few countries in Europe with low gun death rates have worse marriage stats than us). These issues are harder to pin down in data. For example, I have read that people participating in surveys about their faith tend to lie and say that they do believe in god, go to church, etc. when in fact they don't, or don't as much as they say they do. They lie or stretch the truth because they are embarrassed or fearful of being judged by the survey taker.

    So this is all very complicated. The national discussion will be interesting.
     
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  11. Robert Easterday

    Robert Easterday Member

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    Lugan,

    Yes, the beef is in the first three columns, and the points you make about explicit correlations and the significance of outlying data from countries like Switzerland in the analysis are really good. Should be duly noted that both UNICEF and The Guardian (who contributed data) have previously endorsed increased restrictions on firearms; and that some important countries whose data doesn't show (China, Russia, and Brazil) are significant.



    Bob
     
  12. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Craig, each school will have a unique need, until a design standard WITH integrated safety features is established. Until then there are still more than your two listed options.
     
  13. Steve Saville

    Steve Saville Active Member

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    Holy crap. What a mess! Get yourselves into your local schools and see what can be done! Talk to the teachers and the administration. Most of you haven't spent more than thirty minutes in a school since you graduated. You have no idea of the challenges that teachers/administrators/counselors/psychologists face on a daily basis nor what finances in a school district consist of. Most schools can't even fully staff the faculty let alone implement any of ideas that have been suggested. Heck. We don't even have funding for simple things like after school tutoring programs. The dedicated teachers do it on their own time and $. Let's get real here.
     
  14. wik

    wik Member

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    OK after reading this all day at work.
    here is my take.
    the title of the thread is "How to prevent firearm based murder/s"
    so just keeping schools in mind.
    what can be done. in no particular order.
    ban assault guns.limit magazine size
    increase mental health screening.monitoring.
    limiting ammo.
    posting police in schools.
    architectural change to school.(doors)

    OK looking at what the number of people who would be affected by each change. and the projected cost and effect.
    ban assault guns. EFFECTS THE WHOLE COUNTRY effects gun manufactures change's the gun industry. limits everyone's personal freedom,
    increase mental health screening.monitoring. EFFECTS THE WHOLE COUNTRY the system as it sits now can't handle the people now so it will have to be built up.requiring more doctors hospitals and possibly a government agency increasing the tax burden.
    limiting ammo.EFFECTS THE WHOLE COUNTRY. may limit access to some hunting caliber ammo?
    posting police in schools.EFFECTS ONLY SCHOOLS local effect only more officer working providing money for his family.
    architectural change to school.(doors)EFFECTS ONLY SCHOOLS installation of bullet proof airlock entry.and exit only doors. just the cost of installation and monitor of the airlock doesn't have to be police.
    for me the" principle of subsidiarity" apply's here. keep the solutions local. the farther away from local the larger and more negative effect on segments of society who shouldn't be affected by this.

    so my fix would be maned airlock entry (shooter can be trapped between doors), turn style exits( once exit must enter thru airlock),and police officers rotating thru the school during the day.(chance for officers and kids to get to know each other.)

    outside of school more people should conceal carry and shoot the perpetrators like the rabid dogs they are.
    just my opinion.
     
  15. scottr

    scottr Active Member

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    Here are a couple other articles from the Special Forces community on the shooting in CT

    http://sofrep.com/15266/former-pjs-reaction-sandy-hook-school-shooting/

    http://sofrep.com/15255/navy-seal-lessons-learned-from-newton-connecticut/

    http://sofrep.com/15498/newtown-gun-control-battle/

    Not a lot of commentary here but still an interesting read.

    http://sofrep.com/9657/navy-seal-lessons-learned-aurora-colorado-survive/
     
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  16. wa_desert_rat

    wa_desert_rat Active Member

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    Several here have mentioned this... but I think it falls under the broader heading of mental health. If there is a correlation between children of broken families and gun violence there are only two fixes:

    1) Identify them; and,
    2) Deny them access to guns; and,
    3) Fix them.

    I am not convinced that it's possible to fix them... so we can:

    1) Identify them; and,
    2) Lock them away.

    But there are legal ramifications to #2 which revolve around the accuracy of #1.

    So, really, the easiest solution given all the circumstances is:

    1) Require everyone who wants access to guns prove that they are mentally stable and no risk to society; and,
    2) Deny them to everyone else.

    This, too is complicated. Partly because family members of people who are stable may not be stable themselves and gain access to the guns (as in the last two situations).

    So maybe we can:

    1) Identify those who are stable and safe; and,
    2) Allow them access to guns; but,
    3) Only if they can keep the guns secure from everyone else.

    But #3 is problematic. Even though many gun owners do keep their weapons safely stored away, many others leave them loaded and ready on the dresser in the bedroom.

    What if there's a way to keep a loaded gun on the dresser but still safe from anyone other than its rightful owner?

    Well, there is... at least on certain guns. The problems with that are that my wife won't be able to shoot the bastard who is holding me at knife-point and demanding that I turn over my precious collection of baseball cards.

    Right now it appears to me that many gun owners are casting frantically about for a fix to this that does not impact them at all and this does not strike me as very realistic. The focus is on guns because, basically, without guns the problem would largely disappear.

    The one system I favor is letting me have all the guns I want... but nobody else. I'm guessing that some folks will have a problem with this.

    Craig
     
  17. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

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    This may all be true, but the fact is in the 50's people people weren't shooting school kids at schools. Blameing guns for the present day school shootings is like me saying I'm fat because I'm being held hostage by a Knife & fork.Somewhere along the line peoples additudes have evolved to the it's all about me nonsense and people no longer think about the concequences of their actions and how it's going to affect others around them.
     
  18. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    As our society advanced slowly in some positive ways, we have stepped back in others or seen the rise of problems that were not previously an issue.

    No need for name calling and flame throwing here. Feel free to disagree, but at least be civil about it and don't read things into what others are saying unless you read it in the words they type.
     
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  19. ak_powder_monkey

    ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

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    I'd say the world is a hell of a lot less violent than in the 50s. It least its lone pshycopaths nowadays and not the government.
     
  20. Jim Ficklin

    Jim Ficklin Genuine Montana Fossil

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    I've distanced myself from responding to threads on this & other forums of late, but I must clarify something here. Guns are NOT toys. Lots of inanimate things can be used to perpetrate mass murder; those aren't toys either. Perhaps we should ban Hondas too, since that is what the perp stole to drive to the school; this would represent a similar false logic. The Second Amendment protects a right, a freedom, the same as the other 26. Erode one and which amendment will be the next to be weakened or eliminated? Back on track, until the propensity for violence in America is mitigated (which, most unfortunately won't happen instantaneously), schools & other soft targets do need to be protected. Homeland Security, anyone? We could spend a lot less money in other countries and apply those dollars in America. Some good ideas have been proposed via this thread; hopefully our leaders will display similar acumen rather than becoming mired in politically-expedient, bipartisan tunnel-vision the likes of which currently have us teetering precariously on the edge of a fiscal precipice.
     
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