NFR How wolves change rivers....

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by tinman207, Aug 28, 2014.

  1. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    796
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    283
    Location:
    Wenatchee, WA
    Home Page:
    Good post.

    My only comment is on the "somewhat balanced". Even way back in the late 60's the concept of "balance of nature" was pretty much toast to most ecologists. It seems nature wants to careem from one extreme to another when it comes to ecosystems.

    So it is also with the word "natural". It seems that there are very few "natural" ecosystems left on the planet. IF they were there in the first place!! It seems that "primitive" man had more impact on ecosystems than we imagined.

    The real issue is what we want from wildlands. Elk are good. So are wolves. Wait. The orchardists in Chelan County want to kill all the elk. For me I need elk viewing for my business income.... they need elk so they sell their permits from the Wildlife Department for extra income.

    As you note the problem is not the park. It is the wildlands that surround the park. When I was working on Forest Planning we defined a "desired future condition" for Forest Service managed land. Many folks said they just wanted "natural" conditions. Natural is an act of faith more in tune with religion than land management.

    The good news is given the demographic changes in this country most of America will soon lose interest in National Parks, Forests, and BLM lands. When I started working in the 60's I always marveled at the ghost towns scattered throughout the west. There were people everywhere at the turn of the century. I even found a cabin at 5000 feet 20 miles from the nearest road and ten miles from the nearest trail inside Sequoia National Park from the 1930's.

    I suspect in 50 years people will be exploring the abandoned summer homes in Montana and other places and marveling at what possessed people to live so far from the cities.

    It is anybodies guess as to whether the wildlands will be in better or worse shape in the future.
     
  2. Blackbugger

    Blackbugger New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Montana
    Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with any of that and it's kind of funny because you're right, when I think about it my use of the word "balanced" really does has it's root in the late 60's-70's for me.
    When I use it now I actually think of it as representing normal fluctuations that could seem extreme at times. I don't actually think of it as some sort of stasis.

    So I suppose it's a poor choice of a word to use to describe what I actually think.
    I blame hippies....and Euell Gibbons.
     
    oldgoat03 likes this.
  3. pigburner

    pigburner Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    28
    Media:
    5
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    Richland, WA
    The video is describing an example of the keystone species hypothesis developed by Robert Paine, a zoology professor at the University of Washington (http://www.washington.edu/research/pathbreakers/1969g.html). If I recall, his work on the beach involved removing the starfish from a section of beach every week for a couple of years (he'd toss them out in the waves or nearby or something). The section of beach without the starfish changed in that short time from the typical diversity of life to a monoculture of mussels. Without the starfish to keep the mussels in check, they took over everything. Really quite interesting work, and there are a lot of examples how removing one species has ripple effects up and down the food chain.
     
  4. jeff bandy

    jeff bandy Make my day

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,628
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    557
    Location:
    Edmonds, Wa.
    ;)

    "Many parts are edible."
     
    FinLuver likes this.
  5. jwg

    jwg Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2009
    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    132
    Location:
    West Richland, WA
    Are there any keystone species that are not predators?

    The examples in the article were all predators.

    J
     
  6. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,450
    Media:
    24
    Likes Received:
    860
    Location:
    Edgewood, WA
    What is the best handgun to carry for wolf defense?
     
  7. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Messages:
    22,422
    Media:
    29
    Likes Received:
    1,940
    Location:
    In a comfortable chair
    None because a Wolf won't bother you unless you are messing with their young or are in the way of their kill. Or unless they are sick, Rabies.
     
    Golden Trout likes this.
  8. GAT

    GAT Dumbfounded

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2012
    Messages:
    4,784
    Likes Received:
    3,088
    Location:
    Willamette Valley, OR
    The same you would for cougar and there are a hell of a lot more of them out there than there are wolves. There are cougar and bear in McDonald Forest at the edge of Corvallis... I've never seen either and we take a walk somewhere through the forest just about every weekend.
     
  9. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,450
    Media:
    24
    Likes Received:
    860
    Location:
    Edgewood, WA
    ... now those are two experienced fish in the pond I would not have anticipated hooking. :D
     
    Mark Kulikov likes this.
  10. stilly stalker

    stilly stalker Tuna sniffer

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,863
    Likes Received:
    473
    Location:
    Carlsbad, CA
    Salmon are a keystone species
    There's actually a really good argument for the Yellowstone cutthroat, not the wolf as the true keystone species in Yellowstone.
     
    shotgunner likes this.
  11. o mykiss

    o mykiss Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2001
    Messages:
    1,328
    Likes Received:
    197
    Location:
    .
    After watching that, I'm convinced that reintroduction of wolves into Bellingham, Sedro-Woolley, Arlington, Monroe, Seattle and Tacoma should become a key component of any Puget Sound wild steelhead recovery plans.
     
  12. GAT

    GAT Dumbfounded

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2012
    Messages:
    4,784
    Likes Received:
    3,088
    Location:
    Willamette Valley, OR
    I knew it was a troll but I also know some folks are really freaked out about the wolves and fear them. It gave me a chance to mention the cougars and bears that are much, much more plentiful than wolves.
     
  13. rustybee

    rustybee Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    29
  14. weiliwen

    weiliwen Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    287
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    131
    Location:
    Chicago Illinois
    '

    It'd sure take care of that pesky cat population!
     
  15. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,822
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    1,896
    Location:
    Your City ,State
    I'll take cougars over wolves any day. At my age a 40 year old single woman is pretty hot!
     
  16. stilly stalker

    stilly stalker Tuna sniffer

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,863
    Likes Received:
    473
    Location:
    Carlsbad, CA
    They like their meat young and tender- you're more likely to encounter a silver fox or two
     
    bennysbuddy likes this.
  17. Krusty

    Krusty Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    783
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    It's not like there was once a 'climax ecosystem' where the 'natural order' of nature was static. It has always been a churning mass of change...new experiments by nature to see what survives.

    The planet, and 'nature' will do quite fine (up to supernova anyway), though of mankind, perhaps the same won't be said...if anyone remains to do the 'saying'. It's highly possible we're merely a 'dead-end' and not suited for long-term survival. A brief visit to Walmart strongly supports such a view.
     
    Old Man likes this.
  18. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,450
    Media:
    24
    Likes Received:
    860
    Location:
    Edgewood, WA
    zeezzzzzzzzz.... ;)
     
  19. Broderick Smith

    Broderick Smith SeaToTree

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    258
    Media:
    3
    Likes Received:
    38
    Location:
    SeaToTree, WA
    My Pal guides in the park and can affirm this is all true....very cool.
     
  20. Mark Kulikov

    Mark Kulikov Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    100
    Location:
    Polson Montana
    Sad but likely true. P.S. Walmart scares the hell outta me.

    Sent from the Twilight Zone using tapatalk.
     

Share This Page