Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Kent Lufkin, Feb 19, 2009.
Uhhh, I actually bought one of those Hardys....
Umm whole lot of lack of knowledge going on here...
Most of the best rods on the planet today are made from graphites with fiberglass scrim.
the modulus of a carbon material has no bearing whatsoever on it's quality of the quality of the rods manufactured from it.
a fast action rod does not require high modulus material.
everyone wants fast action rods why? because fast action means high line speed. a fast rod however does not have to be stiff. it can be very flexible and still respond quickly yes even fiberglass! even people who think they like slow action rods typically don't! they like flexible rods not slow ones. no one wants slow rods they want rods that develop high line speed with minimal effort and the good feel of a deep flexing rod.
at least I have never met anyone who liked slow action rods.
This is a great observation. I love fiberglass rods. I have more than a dozen in 8'0" and under, and in fact 100% of my rods in that range of lengths are glass. They are clearly slower than graphite in terms of flex. But their recovery speed after loading in a cast is not actually all that slow.
BTW, there are a few people who like truly slow rods on the Fiberglass Flyrodders and Clark's Classic Fly Rods forums, plus a lot of fly fishermen in Japan. I'm not one of them.
And I like it. I bought it mainly for dry fly fishing. After having it for awhile, I'm not so sure that slow rods are as forgiving as people think. Maybe it's Hardys in particular, but you have to be spot-on with your casting to make the thing work. Compared to faster actions, it's a more demanding rod to cast. It's definitely made my casting better because of how much attention you have give it.
Interesting....sounds opposite of what I found. You describe my feelings when I cast my 6 weight TCR. I definitely pay more attention to it. It is less forgiving with minor casting errors as opposed to my slower rods. I feel I don't need to be perfect and can recoup from errors with those rods but with the TCR it demands your timing be on and line speed is always 'game on'. Thanks for sharing.
In my experience, it's rods at either end of the quickness spectrum that are less forgiving, though in vastly different ways.
Like Porter, I once owned a TCR that I found to be very unforgiving of timing errors. The problem with avoiding timing errors on such a stiff rod is that you often can't feel the line load unless you really have a lot of line out and boost line speed dramatically. If your casting stroke is too relaxed, it's hard to make a rod like a TCR work.
I have also owned a few slow glass rods. When I mean slow glass, I don't mean all glass - I mean the slowest of the slow like the Lamiglas "honey" series. Those rods are unforgiving of putting too much force into your cast or they just collapse at the tip. This both saps energy out of the cast and causes the tip trajectory to go into an arc instead of staying flat, and the result is a pile of fly line 10 feet in front of you instead of a sweet cast 30 feet out. Many beginners and impatient anglers would have a hard time with those kinds of rods.
didn't the tfo bluewater rod have a fiberglass butt for lifting and a graphite tip for casting?
Lugan, I don't believe I have casted one of those slower of the slow rods yet, but what you laid out makes sense.
I agree. Most people equate 'fast' with 'stiff'. As you correctly pointed out, the two have nothing to do with each other.
Another rod designer once pointed this out to me: a piece of rebar would be described accurately as being 'slow' in action. I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that it would also be stiff! Probably also not a joy to cast, unless of course it were a piece of classic bamboo rebar...
I couldn't have worded it any better. I definitely was guilty of this when I started fishing with glass rods.
The rods I fish the most (Steffen glass) may be considered 'slow' by graphite standards, but have very quick recovery and it's really easy to generate plenty of line speed to deal with Deschutes canyon winds and I can really sling some serious line with them. But it's the bending that you can feel in the cork that keeps me fishing them (not to mention the reserve power that some of them possess for those larger fish).
I didn't see it mentioned (honestly, I didn't read every word on this thread), but I've always been under the impression that taper, regardless of material, had more to do with a rods action over what that material actually was.
Randy.. there is a little truth in what you say about taper vs material but only a little. On the side i make my own conventional bass rods and the i am actually surprised by how much difference HM material stiffens over IM the rod still bends in the same arc but is noticeably stiffer. Another thing that people do not often consider is diameter. Diameter stiffens a rod about as fast as anything else, as diameter increases stiffness increases. That's why fiberglass rods have such large diameter, it is needed because the material has so little inherent stiffness.
If a guy wanted to make a really good stiff rod out of IM material all he has to do is increase the diameter over an HM rod. however the fly fishing market is pretty unforgiving and wants very thin diameter rods, which is really too bad. the
In the end it's a matter of materials,tapers, plies of material and diameter that go into a rods design.
I totally agree with that. Though I'm not a beginner or impatient, I did cut my teeth learning to cast on some fast graphite. That explains why I find the Hardy fiberglass so demanding; the casting stroke is literally on the opposite end of the spectrum. It usually take me a few casts to get the hang of the 'glass rod if I haven't fished it in awhile. The rest of my rods (except for that damn VT2) I can pick up and cast without any thought.
I want more 'glass rods.
Chad which series Hardy glass rods do you own? Is it one of the current crop, or the older Perfectionist series, or even older than that (JET, etc.)?
Fast - slow - medium all have there own usage as far as I'm concerned. I started with glass because they did not make them with graphite when I started and in turn love the older 80's full flex unsanded orvis graphite rods.
Doesn't mean I don't need a fast rod for blasting through large lake winds. I think it has to do with what ever type fishing you do most would dictate what action rods you like. I do not fish small streams for small fish, I mostly target trout 18 inches or over or don't go. now around the west side I have to fish for some small fish so I bought a 8 1/2 ft. 3 wt for trout that average 12 to 15 inches otherwise all my rods are 9' to 9 1/2 ft. 5 to 6 wt. range from slow to real fast.
If all I mostly fished was small fish and small streams I would of kept the 8' 4 pc. 4 wt. tight loop 80's superfine orvis rod I bought. one of the greatest "FEELING" tapers I have ever cast.
I say tapers because this is where I separate rods builds, I can't stand any separation in the taper of a fly rod. meaning a soft tip on a strong butt or changes in the taper where I can feel a change in strength through the blank when cast. the 2 pc. 5 wt LL I tried had a tip to me that was worthless! the GLX classic 2 pc 5 wt had the most worthless tip I have ever cast on a rod. they claim to have the smallest diameter tips and i could care less how small the diameter is - if it doesn't help the cast or gets lost at distance to me it's worthless. It seems with the faster rods this is how they are being built (with light tips) that get lost when going even just a little long on your casting. then all of a sudden some strong middle section takes over and about 6 inches of the rod booms line out at a high rate. not my preference. many have mentioned "SMOOTH" yes a smooth action (taper) be it slow - medium - fast- is the first thing I ask for in a rod.
I just bought my first truly fast action rod. a refurbished orvis saltwater 906 4 pc 6 wt. helios and I have to say for me was the hardest rod to get it's stroke down than most I have picked up and cast. I have a long stroke for slow rods and can change for almost any rod but this rod took me at least 15 minutes to find what it liked. at first it seemed so stiff! then I started tucking my elbow and snapping the fast rod and a whole different world came to life. the rod through the sweetest tight loops, my friend stood back and was just in awe and commented how beautiful it looked while I gave it quick effortless snaps and 60 to 70 foot perfect loops shot out with so little effort - "I WAS AMAZED" now I'm just as biased toward the slower action rods as any buddy else that started fishing in the early 70's but there was no question this rod cast with so much less effort for distance it was no comparison. this rod was to be strickly for blasting sinking intermediate lines on huge lakes and at 2 3/4 ounce and the short compact stroke to work and being able to lead my cast with my index finger like my 5 WTS. I could cast all day with it. I needed this rod because my arm is plain worn out from baseball and softball playing and coaching, now in my 50's needing something softer on my arm this was - well - the shit! and when winds come up I can just plain abuse this rod with strong blasts that none of my soft rods would stand for!
As far as short 8' and under soft-slow trout rods I have no use for them. I quit fishing small water for small fish when I hit about 20 years old. my 9' and 9'3" 5 wt superfine spring creek rods do just fine on any spring creek I might fish for big fish but that doesn't mean some of the best "tapers" ever built weren't built on short - soft - rods. in fact, I have found most longer rods fail in taper design and I have waded through a bunch of rods to find what I like.
As far as glass, we down lined a 6 WT. 8 1/2 ft. fenwick with A GPX 5WT line and it was the bomb to cast. down lining gave it it's power back and the flex "taper" was so wonderful! just to big and heavy for me but it sure brought back memories of the old days.
I have been buying and selling rods trying to find the perfect rods in 5 and 6 wts. for 2 years. these are the rods I have gone trough=
z axis 906
z axis 9'6' 6
orvis western 906
orvis western 905
winston b2x 9' 6" 6
sp 9' 6" 6
orvis spring creek 4 pc 905
2 orvis spring creek 9' 3" 5 wt
orvis 8' 4 pc tight loop 4 wt.
orvis 80's 9' 6" 6 wt osprey
orvis silver label 106 6 wt.
redington rs3 9' 6" 7 wt
RODS i HAVE ALSO TESTED =
g loomis im6 signature series 905
st. croix 905
and a bunch more!
The rods I have kept or want =
sp 906 3 pc. what I consider one of the best all around 6 wts ever built.
orvis 9' 6" 6 wt osprey full flex. because I built one in 81 and love it's full flex and fish fighting ability.
orvis helios salt 906 fast - light - effortless long powerful cast at 2 3/4 ounce. but will be looking at the 966 helios for just a little softer rod and longer. I paid $265 for the 906 so probably wont get the 966 for about another 10 years - I'm not rich!
Orvis 10' 6 wt. silver label flex rating = mid flex 8.0 perfect taper for my medium rod liking. long for huge lakes I fish. and I only bought it for $110. components are crap but you don't cast and fight fish with components as long as it holds the reel and feels good. I can feel where the tip flex stops and the mid flex stops when going long. but the separation in the taper is not that bad.
orvis 4 pc 905 spring creek because I bought it in the 80's, heavy as shit at 3 5/8 ounce but a noodle and fights fish to 5 pounds like no other with it's full flex action.
2 orvis spring creek 9' 3" 5 wt. 2 pc. one of the best casting tapers from the 80's orvis full flex rods and still soft enough to enjoy and fight fish. just a great taper!
9' 6" rs3 redington 7 wt. encase I want to go steelheading and I got it for free!
The most I paid for the rods I kept was $285 for the custom built 9' 6" 6 wt. orvis osprey.
One note would be that the IM6 G loomis 905 signature series rod was by far one of the best tapers with what everyone wrote about- flex-smooth-power, it just did it all but I have looked for one far and wide but nothing. a friend was given one from his mother in law that worked at loomis clear back in the 80's if I could find one I would pay a good amount for it!
If I fished small water for small fish I would fish nothing but 7' to 8 1/2' late 70's and 80's full flex superfines! I would not have to look any farther or, to any other company for rods. just my preference!