Hypothetical; If we had one shot as a group here to benefit Wild Steelhead..

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by Jeremy Floyd, Nov 2, 2006.

  1. Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Posts: 2,570
    Quesnel, BC
    Ratings: +323 / 0
    ...and we got the opportunity to enact one law to benefit Steelhead. Could this small cross section of anglers even agree on what that single most important thing should be?

    For the sake of not arguing between each other do you think it is even possible?

    Me personally? No way in hell. I cannot see it happening just from the short time I have been here.

    I am curious. If you had one single act what it would be?
  2. ChrisW AKA Beadhead

    Posts: 493
    Seattle, WA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Nice Post

    I would say single barbless hooks and no bait on all rivers that have wild steelhead.
  3. otter Banned or Parked

    Posts: 376
    Port Angeles, Washington
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    In reference to the above, I propose that the law be changed so that fishermen can only fish for fishermen.

    The advantages are twofold.

    One. Fish populations will increase.

    Two. The population of those who fish will decrease.

    For historical and philosophical background, I include the following.....



    By Jonathan Swift, 1729

    It is a melancholy object to those who walk through this great town or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads, and cabin doors, crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three, four, or six children, all in rags and importuning every passenger for an alms. These mothers, instead of being able to work for their honest livelihood, are forced to employ all their time in strolling to beg sustenance for their helpless infants: who as they grow up either turn thieves for want of work, or leave their dear native country to fight for the Pretender in Spain, or sell themselves to the Barbadoes.
    I think it is agreed by all parties that this prodigious number of children in the arms, or on the backs, or at the heels of their mothers, and frequently of their fathers, is in the present deplorable state of the kingdom a very great additional grievance; and, therefore, whoever could find out a fair, cheap, and easy method of making these children sound, useful members of the commonwealth, would deserve so well of the public as to have his statue set up for a preserver of the nation.

    But my intention is very far from being confined to provide only for the children of professed beggars; it is of a much greater extent, and shall take in the whole number of infants at a certain age who are born of parents in effect as little able to support them as those who demand our charity in the streets.

    As to my own part, having turned my thoughts for many years upon this important subject, and maturely weighed the several schemes of other projectors, I have always found them grossly mistaken in the computation. It is true, a child just dropped from its dam may be supported by her milk for a solar year, with little other nourishment; at most not above the value of 2s., which the mother may certainly get, or the value in scraps, by her lawful occupation of begging; and it is exactly at one year old that I propose to provide for them in such a manner as instead of being a charge upon their parents or the parish, or wanting food and raiment for the rest of their lives, they shall on the contrary contribute to the feeding, and partly to the clothing, of many thousands.

    There is likewise another great advantage in my scheme, that it will prevent those voluntary abortions, and that horrid practice of women murdering their bastard children, alas! too frequent among us! sacrificing the poor innocent babes I doubt more to avoid the expense than the shame, which would move tears and pity in the most savage and inhuman breast.

    The number of souls in this kingdom being usually reckoned one million and a half, of these I calculate there may be about two hundred thousand couple whose wives are breeders; from which number I subtract thirty thousand couples who are able to maintain their own children, although I apprehend there cannot be so many, under the present distresses of the kingdom; but this being granted, there will remain an hundred and seventy thousand breeders. I again subtract fifty thousand for those women who miscarry, or whose children die by accident or disease within the year. There only remains one hundred and twenty thousand children of poor parents annually born. The question therefore is, how this number shall be reared and provided for, which, as I have already said, under the present situation of affairs, is utterly impossible by all the methods hitherto proposed. For we can neither employ them in handicraft or agriculture; we neither build houses (I mean in the country) nor cultivate land: they can very seldom pick up a livelihood by stealing, till they arrive at six years old, except where they are of towardly parts, although I confess they learn the rudiments much earlier, during which time, they can however be properly looked upon only as probationers, as I have been informed by a principal gentleman in the county of Cavan, who protested to me that he never knew above one or two instances under the age of six, even in a part of the kingdom so renowned for the quickest proficiency in that art.

    I am assured by our merchants, that a boy or a girl before twelve years old is no salable commodity; and even when they come to this age they will not yield above three pounds, or three pounds and half-a-crown at most on the exchange; which cannot turn to account either to the parents or kingdom, the charge of nutriment and rags having been at least four times that value.

    I shall now therefore humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will not be liable to the least objection.

    I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee or a ragout.

    I do therefore humbly offer it to public consideration that of the hundred and twenty thousand children already computed, twenty thousand may be reserved for breed, whereof only one-fourth part to be males; which is more than we allow to sheep, black cattle or swine; and my reason is, that these children are seldom the fruits of marriage, a circumstance not much regarded by our savages, therefore one male will be sufficient to serve four females. That the remaining hundred thousand may, at a year old, be offered in the sale to the persons of quality and fortune through the kingdom; always advising the mother to let them suck plentifully in the last month, so as to render them plump and fat for a good table. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends; and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter.

    I have reckoned upon a medium that a child just born will weigh 12 pounds, and in a solar year, if tolerably nursed, increaseth to 28 pounds.

    I grant this food will be somewhat dear, and therefore very proper for landlords, who, as they have already devoured most of the parents, seem to have the best title to the children.

    Infant's flesh will be in season throughout the year, but more plentiful in March, and a little before and after; for we are told by a grave author, an eminent French physician, that fish being a prolific diet, there are more children born in Roman Catholic countries about nine months after Lent than at any other season; therefore, reckoning a year after Lent, the markets will be more glutted than usual, because the number of popish infants is at least three to one in this kingdom: and therefore it will have one other collateral advantage, by lessening the number of papists among us.

    I have already computed the charge of nursing a beggar's child (in which list I reckon all cottagers, laborers, and four-fifths of the farmers) to be about two shillings per annum, rags included; and I believe no gentleman would repine to give ten shillings for the carcass of a good fat child, which, as I have said, will make four dishes of excellent nutritive meat, when he hath only some particular friend or his own family to dine with him. Thus the squire will learn to be a good landlord, and grow popular among his tenants; the mother will have eight shillings net profit, and be fit for work till she produces another child.

    Those who are more thrifty (as I must confess the times require) may flay the carcass; the skin of which artificially dressed will make admirable gloves for ladies, and summer boots for fine gentlemen.

    As to our city of Dublin, shambles may be appointed for this purpose in the most convenient parts of it, and butchers we may be assured will not be wanting; although I rather recommend buying the children alive, and dressing them hot from the knife, as we do roasting pigs.

    A very worthy person, a true lover of his country, and whose virtues I highly esteem, was lately pleased in discoursing on this matter to offer a refinement upon my scheme. He said that many gentlemen of this kingdom, having of late destroyed their deer, he conceived that the want of venison might be well supplied by the bodies of young lads and maidens, not exceeding fourteen years of age nor under twelve; so great a number of both sexes in every country being now ready to starve for want of work and service; and these to be disposed of by their parents, if alive, or otherwise by their nearest relations. But with due deference to so excellent a friend and so deserving a patriot, I cannot be altogether in his sentiments; for as to the males, my American acquaintance assured me, from frequent experience, that their flesh was generally tough and lean, like that of our schoolboys by continual exercise, and their taste disagreeable; and to fatten them would not answer the charge. Then as to the females, it would, I think, with humble submission be a loss to the public, because they soon would become breeders themselves; and besides, it is not improbable that some scrupulous people might be apt to censure such a practice (although indeed very unjustly), as a little bordering upon cruelty; which, I confess, hath always been with me the strongest objection against any project, however so well intended.

    But in order to justify my friend, he confessed that this expedient was put into his head by the famous Psalmanazar, a native of the island Formosa, who came from thence to London above twenty years ago, and in conversation told my friend, that in his country when any young person happened to be put to death, the executioner sold the carcass to persons of quality as a prime dainty; and that in his time the body of a plump girl of fifteen, who was crucified for an attempt to poison the emperor, was sold to his imperial majesty's prime minister of state, and other great mandarins of the court, in joints from the gibbet, at four hundred crowns. Neither indeed can I deny, that if the same use were made of several plump young girls in this town, who without one single groat to their fortunes cannot stir abroad without a chair, and appear at playhouse and assemblies in foreign fineries which they never will pay for, the kingdom would not be the worse.

    Some persons of a desponding spirit are in great concern about that vast number of poor people, who are aged, diseased, or maimed, and I have been desired to employ my thoughts what course may be taken to ease the nation of so grievous an encumbrance. But I am not in the least pain upon that matter, because it is very well known that they are every day dying and rotting by cold and famine, and filth and vermin, as fast as can be reasonably expected. And as to the young laborers, they are now in as hopeful a condition; they cannot get work, and consequently pine away for want of nourishment, to a degree that if at any time they are accidentally hired to common labor, they have not strength to perform it; and thus the country and themselves are happily delivered from the evils to come.

    I have too long digressed, and therefore shall return to my subject. I think the advantages by the proposal which I have made are obvious and many, as well as of the highest importance.

    For first, as I have already observed, it would greatly lessen the number of papists, with whom we are yearly overrun, being the principal breeders of the nation as well as our most dangerous enemies; and who stay at home on purpose with a design to deliver the kingdom to the Pretender, hoping to take their advantage by the absence of so many good protestants, who have chosen rather to leave their country than stay at home and pay tithes against their conscience to an episcopal curate.

    Secondly, The poorer tenants will have something valuable of their own, which by law may be made liable to distress and help to pay their landlord's rent, their corn and cattle being already seized, and money a thing unknown.

    Thirdly, Whereas the maintenance of an hundred thousand children, from two years old and upward, cannot be computed at less than ten shillings a-piece per annum, the nation's stock will be thereby increased fifty thousand pounds per annum, beside the profit of a new dish introduced to the tables of all gentlemen of fortune in the kingdom who have any refinement in taste. And the money will circulate among ourselves, the goods being entirely of our own growth and manufacture.

    Fourthly, The constant breeders, beside the gain of eight shillings sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the charge of maintaining them after the first year.

    Fifthly, This food would likewise bring great custom to taverns; where the vintners will certainly be so prudent as to procure the best receipts for dressing it to perfection, and consequently have their houses frequented by all the fine gentlemen, who justly value themselves upon their knowledge in good eating: and a skilful cook, who understands how to oblige his guests, will contrive to make it as expensive as they please.

    Sixthly, This would be a great inducement to marriage, which all wise nations have either encouraged by rewards or enforced by laws and penalties. It would increase the care and tenderness of mothers toward their children, when they were sure of a settlement for life to the poor babes, provided in some sort by the public, to their annual profit instead of expense. We should see an honest emulation among the married women, which of them could bring the fattest child to the market. Men would become as fond of their wives during the time of their pregnancy as they are now of their mares in foal, their cows in calf, their sows when they are ready to farrow; nor offer to beat or kick them (as is too frequent a practice) for fear of a miscarriage.

    Many other advantages might be enumerated. For instance, the addition of some thousand carcasses in our exportation of barreled beef, the propagation of swine's flesh, and improvement in the art of making good bacon, so much wanted among us by the great destruction of pigs, too frequent at our tables; which are no way comparable in taste or magnificence to a well-grown, fat, yearling child, which roasted whole will make a considerable figure at a lord mayor's feast or any other public entertainment. But this and many others I omit, being studious of brevity.

    After all, I am not so violently bent upon my own opinion as to reject any offer proposed by wise men, which shall be found equally innocent, cheap, easy, and effectual. But before something of that kind shall be advanced in contradiction to my scheme, and offering a better, I desire the author or authors will be pleased maturely to consider two points. First, as things now stand, how they will be able to find food and raiment for an hundred thousand useless mouths and backs. And secondly, there being a round million of creatures in human figure throughout this kingdom, whose whole subsistence put into a common stock would leave them in debt two millions of pounds sterling, adding those who are beggars by profession to the bulk of farmers, cottagers, and laborers, with their wives and children who are beggars in effect: I desire those politicians who dislike my overture, and may perhaps be so bold as to attempt an answer, that they will first ask the parents of these mortals, whether they would not at this day think it a great happiness to have been sold for food, at a year old in the manner I prescribe, and thereby have avoided such a perpetual scene of misfortunes as they have since gone through by the oppression of landlords, the impossibility of paying rent without money or trade, the want of common sustenance, with neither house nor clothes to cover them from the inclemencies of the weather, and the most inevitable prospect of entailing the like or greater miseries upon their breed for ever.
    I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavoring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the public good of my country, by advancing our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some pleasure to the rich. I have no children by which I can propose to get a single penny; the youngest being nine years old, and my wife past child-bearing.

    The only change I would make to Mr. Swift's Modest Proposal quoted above would be to put it into the context of fishing, so that fishermen, and the subsequent eating of fishermen thus caught by other fishermen, would be the object of My Fishing Proposal, rather than children. I will leave the subject of how to deal with "trophy" fishing for fishermen for the board to define.

    All in favor?

  4. ChrisW AKA Beadhead

    Posts: 493
    Seattle, WA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I want to change my response...Defeat I-933. We can work on bait barbs and trebles later...
  5. Ryan Nathe Member

    Posts: 836
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +7 / 0
    I think as a group, at least this website, we could all agree on ALL wild steelhead release on all rivers and also no bait.
  6. gt Active Member

    Posts: 2,616
    sequim, WA
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    a two pronged license system:

    - kill license for specific drainages which have limited unclipped returns. all proceeds from sales benefit hatcheries.

    - no kill license for specific drainages with high potential for recovery of unclipped steelhead. all proceeds from sales to benefit system enhancement along with enforcement.

    seperate the conflicting purposes, provide for perceived needs of both tax paying constituencies, dedicate dollars to make it happen, track recovery to see if it can be expanded in time, study economic impact of the communities close at hand.
  7. Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Posts: 2,570
    Quesnel, BC
    Ratings: +323 / 0
    I was thinking about a two license system also. A more expensive release only license that allows you to fish river systems off limits to the harvest license. Make it a priviledge you pay for to fish specific rivers and putting the money directly into improving those drainages.

    If the non harvest drainages are allowed to improve enough we would have a flood of out of state people willing to pay large sums of money to fish those areas. I am all for other people who can afford it paying a large sum (not unreasonable though) of money to improve our local fishing.

    I KNOW people would be willing to pay for that because I do without blinking an eye every year. I pay for an out of state license in 4 states (CA, OR, MT, AK) and also one for BC almost every year just because it is worth it to me to pay more for better, more productive time spent on the water. If I had my way I would be willing to pay all that money and more just to have those sort of fisheries here in state.
  8. Salmo_g Active Member

    Posts: 7,584
    Your City ,State
    Ratings: +1,707 / 0
    One thing to benefit wild steelhead? Don't allow any habitat degradation anywhere in the state, period. OK, that's a non-starter, but it would be the best thing for wild steelhead, far above not allowing anyone to fish for steelhead anywhere, anytime.
  9. windtickler Member

    Posts: 508
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    I've been looking into specialty plates. Unfortunately, this is the best I could do so far:


    License Plates - Update - February 26, 2006

    After several mailings, in-person appearances at conferences around Washington, and more than a year of effort, the license plate signature drive still fell short of the 2,000 needed to have Department of Licensing consider the plate. A second blow was struck by the 2005 Legislature when it passed a new 3,500-signature minimum and placed a two-year moratorium on any new specialty plates. WSFFA appreciates all the efforts and support from every corner of the state. We will keep this issue alive and keep an eye on members' interest during this two-year waiting period.
    click here to
  10. KerryS Ignored Member

    Posts: 6,767
    Sedro Woolley, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +1,785 / 0
    Salmo g nailed it. Stop habitat destruction.
  11. TomB Active Member

    Posts: 1,620
    Ratings: +58 / 0
    1. stop habitat destruction, restore damaged habitat
    2. stop overharvest
    3. stop hatcheries
    4. fix problems associated with hydropower and dams and remove dams where possible
  12. Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

    Posts: 4,034
    Olympic Peninsula
    Ratings: +710 / 0
    "One shot as a group"...in an immediate sense anyway:


    Support, Participate, Get Involved, Vote, Speak Truth to power!!!

  13. Jim Wallace Smells like low tide

    Posts: 5,663
    Somewhere on the Coast
    Ratings: +544 / 0
    Good suggestions...better than resigning oneself to tying cheese patterns for fly ratting in the back alley, or corn patterns for chicken fishing.
    I recall one uneventful evening when I raised the ire of a lady friend by joking about "baby eaters" after noting that veal was listed on the menu at the restaurant...a real mood killer as far as subject matter is concerned. I wish I would have had a copy of that Jonathan Swift piece....might have pulled my ass out of the doghouse. I think she ordered the "wild salmon" on the menu.
    Maybe we could develop a tasty recipe for "Forkians.":clown:
  14. otter Banned or Parked

    Posts: 376
    Port Angeles, Washington
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Dunno, Jim -

    It seems to me that the Eastsiders are the "Kobe beef' of fishermen. OP fishermen tend to be kind of tough and stringy.

    Yrs. truly

  15. gt Active Member

    Posts: 2,616
    sequim, WA
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    wonder bread, sans hook, will catch you all the gold mantel ground squirrels you will ever want to chow down on :D great fun on the 3wt!
  16. windtickler Member

    Posts: 508
    Ratings: +2 / 0
  17. PT Physhicist

    Posts: 3,592
    Edmonds, WA
    Ratings: +751 / 2
    Extend a hand to our gear fishing brothers. Without them we will never have any voice politically in our fight against the other user groups.:beer2:
  18. Will Atlas Guest

    Posts: 0
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I think a ban on killing wild steelhead would be start in the right direction. obviously there are a host of things to do. No one mentioned this but, STOP BURNING FOSSIL FUELS...
    I agree with Tom. Salmo_g is right too, although thats just so sad to consider.
    Word on the Defeat 933, I know there are alot of people here concerned with property rights, and rightly so, but the costs of the bill much outweigh the benefits. Just think of it this way, there will be NO MORE critical areas ordinances, and timber practice laws will be effected too. If it passes we are taking a step 30 years backwards. Anyway, sorry for a rant, if you want more info visit www.noon933.org. Just make sure you vote...and release wild steelhead.
  19. Smalma Active Member

    Posts: 2,841
    Marysville, Washington
    Ratings: +718 / 0
    I have been tempted to duck this discussion but have decided to jump into it.

    While I agree that the issue is habitat just stopping habitat degradaion will not restore our steelhead populations. Current productivity and capacities of the majority of our river systems is so degraded that without some serious restoration of that degraded habitat the very best that can be hoped for in the majority of cases is more of the same.

    Yes the first step is restoring habitat is to quite destroying it but that is only the first very small step in the long journey to any sort of recoveried habitat.

    Bob -
    While WSC has been pretty effective in diverting fishing impacts from harvest towards their favored activitives and have done a very good job of calling attention to the plight of steelhead from my prespective they have largely duck the major issues that would likely make much difference in the long run.

    Tom -
    Aren't what you really saying with ending overharvest (isn't any fishing induced mortality too much harvest?) and hatcheries that steelhead fishing should end while the habitat is being restored?

    Tight lines
  20. windtickler Member

    Posts: 508
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    I've said it before, I would gladly support a rolling closure of the rivers. Like closte the Sky to the summer run one year, the Skagit to the winter run. It's not like we have a shortage of rivers.