Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Jonathan Tachell, Aug 12, 2014.
It's a wonder that anyone who's worth a damn or knows his ass from a hole in the ground even bothers to post here anymore.
Thanks Bob. It's clear to me that using the seaplane to access beaches, and then to fish from those beaches, does not require a "Charter License".
However, Salmon are classified as "Food Fish". As regards the Game Fish Guide License, from the same page:
"Game fish guides can operate statewide, but are limited to offering services relating only to fishing for game fish."
This tells me that you cannot guide for Food Fish (Salmon), unless you have a "Food Fish Guide License".
Unless you can point me to something that specifically exempts a Game Fish Guide from the Food Fish Guide requirement when guiding in the salt (which would make no sense), your argument that the requirement for a Food Fish License is for fresh water Food Fish only may be deficient.
Under frequently asked questions. Can a gamefish guide license holder offer guide services for salmon or other food fish? No
This is really confusing to me. On one hand it really seems strange that people who really know what they are doing wouldn't have already determined that what they are doing is legal or not. So in the case of Orvis offering this service, it just would seem to me that they have crossed their "T's" and dotted their "I's". Then again I tend to be too trusting so maybe not. I really want to give these guys and all guides for that matter the benefit of the doubt but it is becoming harder and harder to do so.
Jeff I dont see how I'm not being clear. If you read my last couple replies I quoted the regulations word for word from the WDFW website. And having a food fish license has nothing to do with guiding for salmon in saltwater.
It specifically says you can not guide salmon in the salt with a food fish license, only in freshwater rivers and streams. You can guide for other saltwater food fish but it specifically exempts salmon from the list of fish to legally pursue.
Go read what it says on the website.
I agree that accessing a salt beach using a float plane, a lund or whaler boat or a ford pickup does not require a "charter license".
What does require a "charter license" is charging a fee to guide for salmon from that salt beach.
There are 4 options for guide licenses
1) A game fish guide license; needed to guide for game fish in state waters
2) A food fish guide license to guide for food fish (including salmon) in freshwater (except Lake Washington and the lower Columbia downstream of Longview).
3) A non-salmon charter license to guide for food fish other than salmon in the salt.
4) A salmon charter license to guide for salmon in the salt as well as Lake Washington and lower Columbia downstream of Longview.
If the "guides" in this float plane adventure for Puget Sound coho have a salmon charter license than they are golden. If they do not there maybe issues.
I don't know whether the guides on the float plane adventure have that salmon charter license but since there are limited number of those licenses are available (from memory I think there are 248 of them though here may be more) it should not be too difficult to research that. I do know that citations have been issued for guiding without that salmon charter license on places like Lake Washington for targeting salmon without that lic.
For those that may have questions about this issue a that can not be answered by visiting the link provided earlier in this discussion a call to WDFW enforcement with a specifically framed question should clear things up.
Curt, not so sure about this. The Salmon Charter License requires a "vessel designation" as Bob alluded to earlier. This does not apply to a guide on the beach. However, the "Food Fish Guide" requirements specifically state that they apply to Fresh Water.
If I were Bob, or any guide working a salt beach, I'd want to have more this:
"The states attorney general office has an adviser appointed for wdfw matters who has stated to me previously that this walking beach guiding is not an illegal activity under the law."
In writing, along with a statement clarifying license requirements. At a minimum, Bob's contention that guiding for salmon in the salt does not require anything more than a game fish guide license is puzzling, in the context of all the other requirements.
Just curious is all. I do think guides should be held to a high standard, and I believe that Bob Triggs would agree.
From everything I know, Bob is totally above board and I'd love to fish with him some day. I'd hate to see him get in trouble because of his recollection of some undocumented statement made by the attorneys general office.
Just to add... Most of Bob's beach guiding is for Searun Cutthroat iirc. His Guides Game License would be fine for that.
I agree that with a game fish guide license walking the beaches targeting sea-runs is a legal activity.
From the link you provided regarding a salmon license and the designated vessel -
A current copy of vessel documentation or registration is required when a vessel is being designated on a license.
A Salmon Charter*license is required if you accept a fee to take a person fishing for salmon, food fish or shellfish in Marine Areas 1 through 13 (including 2-1 Willapa Bay, 2-2 Grays Harbor, 8-1 and 8-2), Lake Washington, or the Columbia River downstream of the Longview Bridge.
I assume that if a boat is not being used then a vessel does not need to be designated on the license.
Jonathan, my question was not wether or not it is legal. It was and is. Do you think is right to call someone out without trying to get their side of the story? What if your wrong? You could do irreparable damage to their reputation. Are you okay with that? Would you be if someone did it to you?
Its been done to me on here multiple times. Conduct your business legally and you won't have any issues.
Also maybe don't bash other people for fishing legally just because it does not align with your personal ethics. If you don't draw negative attention people are probably less likely to point out certain things such as guiding illegally.
I have no dog in this fight, but if you're that convinced that what they're offering is illegal, what are you gonna do about it? Is this you taking your big stand against Orvis? Making internet posts?
No. It's questioning whether or not it is legal. Our state stopped issuing Salmon Charter licenses quite a few years ago. The people who do own those licenses have to undergo a process that is far from simple. If this is not a legal practice, it should be known. If they are "skirting" the edges of the law, that should be known too. If it's a perfectly legitimate practice, then they have nothing to worry about. This information might be enough for me to go out and get a guides license which is a very simple process. I have the boat to get my potential clients from beach to beach and could see making some side money a couple months a year and making a killing on the odd number humpy years!
Don't know how it gets around having an angler permit, or Charter License. But, apparently it's ok (still not sure about that though).
The questions being raised are very fair.
Head out the NB, drop 5 WaterMasters with clients on the fish, circle around while they catch their salmon, then retrieve and go hit the next spot. Not sure how long my trailer would stay intact but sounds like a unique opportunity. No fishing from my boat so should be ok.
Actually, it wouldn't necessarily JUST be rude —it could be construed by a court as libel (published defamation).
The certifications and requirements in WA to guide paying clients in the saltwater while specifically targeting salmon would make for a short but interesting Seattle Times outdoors section article.
Yeah good luck with that, considering I have not mentioned anyone's name or place of business. I guess the same could be said for everyone else that has bashed businesses by name including employees. Its an internet forum but I guess having a discussion about the legality of guiding practices is not allowed. And for the record I have no quarrel with anyone that could be involved.
That being said I have looked into the process of becoming a saltwater salmon guide and realized along with most everyone else that unless you have a crazy amount of money your not going to be able to buy or lease a salmon charter license, let alone make a profit. So I guess my issue is when people skirt the law or break it.
Actually, no names have to be used — just implied. Scores of defamation cases have been successful won in court on the basis of implied intent. Given there is a 10+ page thread on this same topic on this same forum and that thread names names and businesses, intent could be easy to prove here. Internet forum or not, printed defamation is libel and can be (and frequently has been) the basis of lawsuits. Saying it's just an internet forum doesn't keep the lawyers away. You are responsible for your statements no matter where they are made.