in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
    Boston-Idaho
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    http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?82119-Tight-loops

    Hi All,

    In the previous post about tight loops, there are quite a lot of discussions about how to make a tight loop, there are some good suggestions. However, there are more than one way to get a tight loop, above thread has mentioned one traditional straight rod path principle. Here I want to illustrate and hopefully get some opinions about the second type of tight loop...see videos below... discuss away if you will... but please keep in mind personal attack is not allowed in this board and this thread. Just kindly remind you please respect others if you want to jump in. Thanks,:thumb: Mark

    The traditional tight loop: (2:30 sec)




    The new concept of tight loop: (0:45 sec)
  2. Joe Smolt Member

    Posts: 532
    Bothell, WA, USA.
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    I don't quite get where you are going here. In Ed Ward's video, he states that his videos are totally untricked to show pretty casting. He is chucking big flies. The top video looks like no fly or a very small fly. Showing those nice tight loops when you are chucking a big fly is still something I don't think I've mastered. So I look at these two videos showing one being in Hollywood vs the Hoh

    Joe
  3. yuhina Tropical member

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    Hi Joe,

    I can't comment on the perfect loop cast (top one), because I rarely cast in this style. I use Ed's style. and I agree with you his style can chuck big fly and still maintain a good sharp loop. This doesn't mean that the top video (Chris) can't chuck a big fly with tight loop. Both casts has their places I guess...

    What I want to illustrate here is the different casting movement they are using. If look closer, Ed's rod tip never form a straight line path as traditional casting instruction suggested. His rod tip actually is quite circular around and use a lot of rotation movement.

    Mark
  4. Brady Burmeister Active Member

    Posts: 555
    OH
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    I don't see it this way. A very straight line sweep, a straight 45 thrust to begin d loop, a straight line forward cast towards target. Once again, I'm left puzzled with your aim here.
  5. Joe Smolt Member

    Posts: 532
    Bothell, WA, USA.
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    I'm no jedi caster, so I really can't speak to the detail level of casting. Ed talks about a sustained water anchor. His video shows a style I've never seen before where he is essentially dumping the line all around him so that he is maximizing the anchor and the load on the rod. That is immaterial with regards to the anchor which probably relates to the last casting motion.

    To me, a spey rod is a very efficient tool for casting big flies all day. Ed's video emphasizes minimizing effort, keeping the motion of the hands is very compact. So I suspect his style reflects economy of effort rather than being pretty. That circular aspect is reflecting little arm and shoulder motion vs first caster

    I often see that type of upward pointing loop with skagit casting when I am watching my fishing partner. I wonder how much the sustained anchor and having to rip sinking lines out of the water.

    Joe
  6. yuhina Tropical member

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    No problem, Brady,

    We need different opinion! and I appreciate you point out yours.
    If you look closer to where Ed's rod tip stop, it will give you some idea.
    I cast in his style, so I know it is very round and curve and stop low... but this is just my experience.

    Mark
  7. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
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    Joe, great observation and I think you got the very important point. The less effort and better efficiency is centered in his style. The circular motion is the key element in all his casts. Great input! Joe
    Mark


    see clip on the time frame - 0:16 sec ; 0:29 sec ; 0:36 sec for the circular forward stroke

  8. Joe Smolt Member

    Posts: 532
    Bothell, WA, USA.
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    I should clarify my mumbling. Eds casting style reminds me of someone fishing. The first video looks like someone casting. In Eds video I see him dropping the tip soon. I do this, for some reason, when I am casting short. My casting style for a floating line is very different than with a skagit line. For a floating line, I will stop high and achieve tight loops (usually smaller lighter flies). For a skagit line, I feel I sometimes stop lower. I know my loops are generally wider when casting a skagit line. I don't know if it is the mechanics of the line and what is involved with what I feel is a lot more to load the rod and a lot more to pull out of the water. Its the difference between a touch a go cast vs a sustained anchor, a big ass fly, and a sink tip that must be pulled out of the water.

    Joe
  9. Panhandle Active Member

    Posts: 4,103
    Selkirk Mountains, Idaho Panhandle
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    Honestly, who cares about tight loops when casting short heads and big flies? All I care about is mechanics in terms of getting the fly out and fishing. I have no idea how pretty it is; its probably pretty nasty, but I can cast the hell out of it and catch fish. Longer lines? I care a little more, but not much. I'm a fisherman not a caster. I don't spend time on ponds analyzing my cast or really try to achieve anything other than: anchor, D, go, mend, pull, fish to bank. We all have different styles, which is what makes it interesting and unique. I'm just not really interested in being a pretty, great caster. I am interested in being a very good steelheader.
  10. fisshman26 Member

    Posts: 357
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
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    Better casting leads to better fishing!
  11. Sean Beauchamp Hot and Heavy at yer 6

    Posts: 2,115
    Shoreline, WA, U.S.
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    Casting well and fishing well do go hand in hand. Especially with short heads IMHO. I'm interesting in improving my casting technique because I think it will help me catch more fish. Tight loops will cut the wind better as well as slide under overhangs better. Better turnover makes for a more effective mend. And with a short head on a longer cast in challenging currents you are only get one mend to set up your swing or none even. The better you can tackle challenging scenarios the more potentially untouched water opens up for you. with as many people and as few fish as there are I will take any advantage I can get.

    That's the short of it anyway.
  12. fisshman26 Member

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    Trail, B.C., Canada.
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    The long of it can be said as well! (ie same for long lines)
  13. Panhandle Active Member

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    Selkirk Mountains, Idaho Panhandle
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    I think Poppy says it best, "it doesn't matter how you get it out there, as long as you get it out there." Or something like that. What I'm saying is, I don't obsess about how it looks fundementally, as long as it fishes. In other words, I know guys who are great casters but poor steelheaders, and decent casters who are fishy freaks. A pretty cast doesn't catch fish. What you do after the line hits the water does. Sorry, Mark, not trying to hijack or discount your other points made here.
  14. fisshman26 Member

    Posts: 357
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
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    If you can cast properly you dont have to do anything after the fly lands just hold on!
    Sean already brought up most of the points of why good casting is important.
  15. Panhandle Active Member

    Posts: 4,103
    Selkirk Mountains, Idaho Panhandle
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    Really? So if you're a good enough caster with tight enough loops you don't even have to know how to fish? Oh God, what am I getting myself into?
  16. Greg Holt Active Member

    Posts: 154
    camano island, wa.
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    I'll play one round in this game: in the first video (Christopher Rownes') there appears to be no fly, no sink tip. The forward stroke is inclined outward from vertical (especially in the single hand casts), and when filmed from a low downstream camera angle it makes it appear to be a tighter loop than it actually is, since the loop is forming partially sidearm (which, not coincidentally helps prevent tailing loops). Not saying it is purposeful slight of hand, just pointing it out. If you try his high hard stop with a heavy sinktip and a heavy fly, you have what is commonly referred to as a "mess", since gravity acts on the sinktip whlle in flight, pulling it downwards onto the outgoing loop, only forward velocity saves the tailing loop.

    Ed's final cast is cackhanded, which forces the rod tip into a high, flat plane for an extended period, which assists in forming that upward-tilted "tight" loop. If you watch his strong-side casts in other videos, his forward delivery is low and slingshot when casting sinktips and large flies.

    In Ed's video, with the constant tension he supplies, if he didn't have a sinktip and a gnarly fly, he might have trouble holding the anchor, given the continuous pulling on the line during the cast.

    Further, Christopher's rod is a Loop scandi stick--designed to yield an advantage when throwing tight loops on floating heads. Ed's rod is similar to the dredger taper--more of a catapult with a softer midsection and relatively stiffer tip.

    Tight loops may or may not pack the most energy (velocity and mass matter, too), but they look pretty and are drag resistant. I've seen many slow moving tight loops that could barely carry a leader, let alone a sinktip and a big fly!

    I would suggest these two casting "styles" are purposeful for the result intended with the added notion that the parts are not interchangeable. Apples and Oranges.
  17. fisshman26 Member

    Posts: 357
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
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    Pan, do I really need to explain to you???
    If you can control your cast ie tight loops, or distance, or whatever is a by product of being a good caster, you can set up your cast so that your fly is fishing as soon as it lands, and can do so in a raging wind, or fish for fish that have been pushed out or whatever.
    Far better than mending the line and jerking your fly all over the place.
    But I am sure you knew all this ;-)
    As a side note all the best casters I know and fish with are superior steelheaders!
  18. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
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    I think in flyfishing it does matter how you get it out there... So much of the sport, we hold dear, is about the tradition, gear and technique. Think I'm wrong? just look at all the theads dedicated to technique and gear. If it really didn't matter how we got it out there, we wouldn't discuss techinque, lines, the "New rod", and beat our chests and boast how much of a gear whore we are. Instead we would concentrate more on water types, presentation, and river/stream tactics.

    I know when I'm frustrated and flogging the water, I usually call my days short. On the other hand when everything comes together and I'm shooting lazers there never seems to be enough light in the day.

    James.
  19. Panhandle Active Member

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    Selkirk Mountains, Idaho Panhandle
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    Well, Bruce, you're out of my league and I don't mean that sarcastically. I'm not a great caster.
  20. yuhina Tropical member

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    Boston-Idaho
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    Hey Gentlemen,

    All great points...

    distance without control has no value! OK If you think distance is everything, then you need to come down to the earth, if you think distance doesn't matter... then, you are living in the fishing heaven...
    see video below