in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    This is the best thing I've read ever since my first look at the Skagitmaster forum- in my whole one day's experience with it-


    "Speaking to the physics and the mechanics of the loop (to yuhina), my advice would be this:
    Don't try to explain something that may be an artifact of style as a necessary mechanical property of the cast...in other words, you may be attaching importance to something that is easier explained as a flaw."

    BTW, I've opened a poll on Speypages in the General section to see what folks think.
     
  2. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Since this is a group discussion, I wonder if there are anyone want to chip in and explain the puzzles that Trevor just put up?... I am exhausted today... got to go to bed in 10 minutes... fishing tomorrow... good night Gentlemen! : )
     
  3. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Mark,
    I think Trevor is saying many of the same things I have been stressing for several days, and he's doing it with equal or better clarity, and adding new thoughts as well.
    Imagine (since you love analogies) a rowboat drifting past you as you stand at the dock. You have a rope tied to the bow, and as the bow of the boat passes you, you (NOT ME!) pull on the rope, expecting the boat to speed up, or the stern to swing away from the dock. Instead, you only draw the bow towards you as the boat continues drifting by (unless it has a six foot keel). The water and the sky both have limited grip. (Thank God, or we couldn't cast at all!)
    I don't have the post numbers in my head, but they dealt with inertia, tension maintainence, and not being able to add significant energy in the most final stages of the forward stroke.
    I hadn't thought of the "distance robbing effect" of a late downstroke, but it certainly seems likely.

    One thing Trevor didn't mention specifically (though he implied it in the final sentence of the first paragraph) is that the line has less and less stick as more and more of it gets airborne, so pulling down on the rod late in the stroke can't add significant load, hangdown or not.

    He included vegetables with the meat too, but you'll enjoy digging them out yourself.

    Pleasant dreams

    PS: I'm back on the sidelines in this discussion at this point, awaiting your promised responses to my many queries unless you need or want me to summarize them in a single posting. I'm not making my mind up on this idea til I've heard you out, and I'm sure you'd give me the same consideration.
    Greg
     
  4. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    Greg,

    For the record, I don't think the down stroke necessarily has a distance robbing effect, I just don't think it offers a 30% improvement.
     
  5. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Trevor,
    Perhaps I mis-interpreted the following from your post: "When you give the fly line a little yank to turn over a fly, it turns over, but always lands shorter than where it wanted to". "The follow through is akin to a haul that you might use to assist a fly in turning over at the end of the cast."

    I guess I was putting that idea together with "following through and downward", and came up with my own impression of what you meant. My apologies, and thanks again for bringing that to my attention.

    Thanks for your clarification.
     
  6. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    Greg,

    Sorry, I wasn't very clear with that. I'm not doing enough proof-reading as I go. I just happen to be home with a cold today and burning some time...

    If a cast is under powered and the fly isn't going to turn over, then it's going to land short of where you were aiming anyways. A little pull on the line isn't adding new outbound kinetic energy, but rather affecting the existing energy to immediately turn over the fly. The fly may land right where it was going to crash, might be shorter, might be longer. My point, though, was to give an example of pulling through the loop shape without adding energy. I believe that by the 4th still frame in post #152, the down stroke isn't imparting any new outbound energy, but it is adding tension through the loop to the stuck line, maximizing the existing energy's effect on it. Similarly, a high stop doesn't just unload the rod, it also holds the tension in the line, so that the loop propagates down it. If you watch the last video, you'll see several instance of him lifting the rod as the line is about to land on the water. He is pulling through the line to force a strong turnover, but the quantity of outbound energy he had to work with was set long before. Another instance would be fishing a giant leech on a 300gr skagit line. If you cast with a high stop and find that the line doesn't have enough energy to pop the tip and fly free, try the down stroke followed by an immediate lift and you will pop the fly free, but you won't be adding much in the way of outbound energy. Strong follow through or a pronounced down stroke is also not what I would consider a loop shaping effort. It's a trick for sticky flies and keeping the loop low to the water in high winds.
     
  7. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Trevor and Greg,

    It seems you guys had some good discussion going on... cool... sorry, I really need to fish, the river is calling today...
    I draw a very quick diagram (super stiff rod) see below. PLease pay more attention to:
    The red line (overhang),The ICR (instant center of rotation), The point A, B and The angle change (@) after A point. the fly/sinktip still in the water. I am heading out now...sorry.. will be back and join you guys... Sincerely, Mark

    [​IMG]
     
  8. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Mark,
    The reason Teliss`s loop shape changes as it goes out is the simple rule the line does what the rod tip tells it to do.....the very best casters will start the forward stroke very smoothly but accelerate thru the stroke with the highest speed happening just before the stop, the tightening of the loop is from this acceleration from the casters hands thru the tip to the line in succesion.

    A very simple thing you can do is take the butt end handle of your spey rod, and get a neoprine reel cover or somthing of the sort, on the end of the rod, and mimic the different forward strokes and see what happens to the reel cover, it will fly off the end of your mini rod at the point of the stop and you can track trajectory etc. Mike Kinny does this with his students who have a hard time not stopping and hitting the forward stoke down and thus the line goes down or hit the stop too soon and thus the line goes up and nowhere.

    As far as the fine video that Dustin(?) put up of him single hand casting and saying he is not using a straight rod path, well he is drifting into the back cast to set up for the change of direction `but` on the forward stoke it looks pretty straight to me.
     
  9. Fred Krow

    Fred Krow Member

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    Yes,,,,,,, thank you.

    With a high quick stop, you can cast lazer tight loops. Then remember to move the rod tip 4"-5" in the horizontal plane.

    Now, make a wider casting arc and observe the loop size.

    Regards,
    FK
     
  10. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Actually, this is not like a Haul...a haul shortens the head & overhang along the flight path, thereby narrowing the loop and accelerating the line. A follow through pulls the line off tragectory and actually robs power as the line mass fights to stay on course.

    Here's another analogy...I have to go to work so if it's a truely good analogy someone else will be able to run with it...How does a roper throw his loop, does he throw a long line or does he concentrate the mass on the wind up? Now swing a 27' skagit over your head and see how it flies. Fold it 4 or 5 times, does it seem to fly better or worse?

    Anyway more food for thought,

    James.
     
  11. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    James,

    Again, that's me trying to get it out fast without being clear. When I did a lot of single hand casting, we thought of there being three different possible hauls. The single and double during the casting stroke, then the triple being a simple pull on the running line as the fly was just about to turnover. My use of the word haul was only in reference to the third, and chosen for it's degree of separation from the actual casting stroke, to highlight the difference between actual outbound energy and the effect of adding tension to the line. I agree, that in principal, what he is doing would rob energy, but when the cast is considered as a whole, he may actually be getting better performance from a longer, stronger forward stroke as he isn't planning for a hard, high stop. Do I think this is the best use of the rod and universally applicable to all lines? Definitely not, but I have found you can use a softer stop with skagit lines and still get a nice loop. I hope I'm making sense. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Edit: I take that back. 4 hauls. We also used a "water haul" in certain situations. Very liberal use of the word haul...
     
  12. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Ah, disorder with the potential for chaos--my work here is complete...

    Just kidding gents, continue. I've been attempting to play this same melody for the last several days, though in a slightly different key. Yours resonates as well or better.

    Mark, still waiting for your submittal, with the hope it can be expressed in terms of "line, rod, and water", to borrow a phrase from another.
     
  13. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    I have an apology to make to Mark...reference post#179.
    "I don't fault that, I'm no artist either. Guess we're soul brothers that way". I wrote that.
    At that moment I was forgetting you actually are an artist, I was referring to the whole drawing diagrams thing.
    Honest, not meant to hurt your feelings.
     
  14. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Trevor,

    I agree. CM here is bit complicate to explain in soft object, I think we can just leave it as the imaginary point to help us think about how the mass distributed. (For soft object, CM always changing (except for some special cases such as spinning loop that the CM remain in the center – cowboy’s lasso). There are less important when we are dealing with pulling force. Pulling will always impact the front end of the Skagit head, tail just follow.

    Not sure if I understand you here? You don’t need kinetic energy to acting force upon. You only need mass (object) to add the force. F=m*a

    (Trevor, just a note regarding Kinetic energy... I know what you mean here, but energy is not a good term for analyze "work", force (F) and acceleration (a) are more related factors to our subject. just FYI.)

    No, as soon as you have room in front of you, you always can pull. If you pull, you are adding force, adding acceleration. The farest point you can pull is the straightened rod tip in front of you. Everything pass that point is what you mean “passed”. You can’t push a object with a rope. This mean, no addition forward forces in Skagit head pass the overhang. (that is the reason I use 90 degree overhang is the end of pulling) panel 2) C point.

    Agree.

    Not true. Downward pulling still adding forces to the forward stroke. Because the angled force still contribute to partial forward stroke of the force (v2 in the #169).

    You can put more force indeed. More acceleration. But you still can stop, just stop low… when rod tip hit the desire position. (depends on the desired trajectory)

    Not true. The rod tip speed reach the highest when it straighten. See simple harmonic oscilation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_harmonic_motion As Bruce mentioned. The acceleration is slow to fast when exercise correctly. The fly rod is acting as a lever when it start to load, this leverage traveling/rotation speed (say Vl). Will adding on top of the rod tip unfolding speed (Vt). So the final line speed will be the sum of Vl+Vt. Highest speed when the rod stop and unload. (this is the concept of relative motion, when you are throwing a base ball out of running bus, the bass ball speed to the ground would be bus speed +throwing speed)

    (not ture, the same reason above, relative motion) it can only pull line through the system and increase tension to the fly.
    (to be continued)

     
  15. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Great post! Bruce

    I love Mike's exercise!

    Tellis' shrinking loop might need more explanation than simple tight loop... but I don't have energy for that at this moment... : (
    also it seems the group discussion is focused on the overhang now... will love to hear what you have to say about overhang...

    Mark
     
  16. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    I will gradually shifting my diagram into the real fishing components, IF i still have energy left...@@. good suggestions, but sometime a diagram is easy for discussion. A B C... you know...BTW, Greg, you are absolutely right about pulling a rope... We can pulling a rope, as soon as the tension are there... but not pushing a rope to move a object.
     
  17. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    no problem... I have a thick skin...very thick like catfish...
     
  18. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hi Gents,

    After 14 pages of brainstorming, I think we have pounded the subject hard enough and also have yielded a really good discussion. I really appreciate this group effort! Now, I think it has reached the time and stage to call it end for good, due to many reasons, but mainly is my personal stuff getting too busy and preventing me from keep with all the discussions. I really appreciate your understanding... and thanks again for the great input and ideas! (we will continue discussing the topic off the forum) Mark
     
  19. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

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    Ya think? :thumb:
     
  20. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Mark,
    You weren't too busy when YOU raised this topic, you likely wouln't be too busy if all here agreed with you in every aspect, so I doubt that it's "getting too busy" that's causing you to slink off with such a lame escuse. Speaking for myself, I feel used, so don't look for too much "understanding". Others here may certainly chastise me if they feel I'm out of order.
    Greg
     

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