in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
    Boston-Idaho
    Ratings: +43 / 0
    Greg,

    All due respect:
    It sadden me you see this thread differently than my view.

    I have provided several things to this thread to facilitate the group discussion 1) the youtube videos 2) explain what it differ, and how it differ in mechanic wise,3) use many analogy and explain how it differ than the real fishing 4) draw several diagrams to enhance the discussion and clarify what is the missing element in our thinking.

    To me, I have been giving out something I viewed as a casting secret to help others. and this is the technique I learned from tried and errors. so far, I felt I am really bummed not get my mouth shut. Because I say it will work, I have to explain everything I knew... brush up all the basic physics and included suffering from personal attack... along with dealing with my increased research demanding

    Just want to let you know I am all along the same logic, there is another way to make a perfect loop. If you can not picture the effort and if you can not see the value in those discussion. Then I have nothing to say. AND please remember my last sentence on the last post #199 (we will continue the discussion off the forum).

    After all those effort, and you feel you still NEED to punch me in the face in the public or you simply just want to know the answer? bluntly speaking, I have put up the answer and explained the answer more than 10 times in this thread. What could I do? if you still don't think this way? Keep in mind, I did not force people to accept my view and my answer. If you don't believe it, go try it, if it doesn't work for you, then laugh at it... you don't really want to punch me in the face because the reason that you don't like the idea...

    Fly casting is as important as my career. but at this very moment, I have to devote all my time in the career. IF NEEDED, I will be back and discuss more, in a reasonable time devoting... FYI.

    Sincerely, Mark
  2. TrevorH Active Member

    Posts: 428
    Bellingham, WA, US.
    Ratings: +32 / 0
    Mark,

    I feel compelled to reply on board one more time. After that, I agree that all this typing sucks. I started to quote you and reply point by point last night and I immediately felt like I wanted to shoot myself in the head instead.

    My #1 problem with your theory is your concept that a fly line in a d-loop has a center of mass. You compared it as a soft object to a lasso, but a lasso is a rigid rope. If it weren't, the loop would collapse as it began spinning. A fly line is profoundly more supple and simply DOES NOT have a center of mass as you suggest. Work previously done, existing as kinetic energy is what gives shape to a fly line. The energy is it's frame, gives it form, and that energy is changing it's expression in response to a myriad of variables. At no point can you make a fly line take a form where it would respond to input or have a center of mass like a steel ball. If you wound it up with the tightest spiral possible, you are still simply leading the line by pulling along it's length. The spiraled 'ball' will not move as a whole when you take a tangent out of it. You will simply lead the line out into whatever path you are able to take. I really believe you have let your imagination get away from you on this one. It is key that you consider this simple point, as your hammer throwing analogy, all your vector diagrams, your whole theory relies on it, and it is wrong. Asking me or anyone else to consider CM as an imaginary point for the sake of a vector drawing is asking us to participate in an mildly entertaining delusion.

    As an aside, I also don't think you can accurately discuss casting without considering kinetic energy anymore than you can swat a bullet out of the air based on the fact that you know it only weighs 180gr or so. The 'snapshot' approach doesn't appeal to me as energy is what WE, as casters, impart to the line. Energy is the expression of our efforts. It is what makes fly fishing the compelling, beautiful thing it is. In your gut, you know this.

    I really feel like you should be willing to quit the theory if you accept that there is no CM, but there is also a problem with your notion that you are providing positive input in the horizontal plane past 10:30 or so. In all of your vector diagrams, you point to the horizontal axis, note that there is still a value, and assume that that force is being applied. You mentioned relative motion in a reply to me but ignore the fact that once the fly line is moving faster than the rod tip, that force will not be imparted. Anyways, the two primary factors that effect tip speed in the horizontal plane are the angular motion of the rod and the release of stored (potential) energy. I terms of a clock face, the speed in the horizontal plane is zero at 3:00 and 9:00. The speed reaches it's maximum from a purely angular perspective at 12:00. By 10:30, the horizontal speed by angular motion has been cut in half. BY DESIGN, fly rods lengthen the the distance over which they do work to the line, by unloading their stored energy as our ability to do so diminishes. In that sense, they are self-stopping. We maximize the rods release of stored energy, by forcing the stop in a timely manner. In your still frames, you can see the rod is clearly stopping on it's own by the third frame. Look at bend on the rod butt vs. the second frame. It is releasing it's energy in a SLP and in the third frame the tip is nearing maximum speed. The rod will be straight in a fraction of a second, and will only have the very minor and rapidly diminishing horizontal component of it's angular motion left to contribute, which it will be trying to impart to a line that just experienced maximum angular AND spring recovery input. It's isn't contributing beyond 10:30 or so anymore than I could accelerate a car going 20 mph by running alongside it at 10mph and giving it a push, certainly not to the tune of 30%. The opportunity to do work has past.

    I enjoy your posts, Mark, and I admire the energy you put into the whole spey thing. On occasion, and in this instance, I think you are nuttier than squirrel shit, but I am rarely put off by that quality. In a world full of people struggling to make sense, I find adventuresome, and occasionally nonsensical, thinking often makes a lot of sense. If you would like to shoot what I have posted here full of holes, I would encourage you to do so, but don't expect a reply from me. My fingers are tired and my 3yr old wants to play!
  3. Greg Holt Active Member

    Posts: 154
    camano island, wa.
    Ratings: +54 / 0
    Mark,
    "What could I do?" Try this novel approach: pose the idea as a question, not an answer, and you will witness a world of difference in the content, quality and tone of the response, not to mention your own attitude regarding the topic and the participants. That's what you COULD do...
    Greg

    Post script: "continue the discussion off the forum"... "giving out something I viewed as a casting secret to help others"...

    This public forum is not a secret society, where only the enlightened and worthy are granted access to the holy grail, nor is this is a cult, where the members sit at the feet of an enlightened teacher. You agreed we are all equals here, so prove it by sticking around for as long as it takes to defend your ideas, if your convictions are as solid as you indicate. If your ideas ulitmately win the day, I will be at the head of the line congratulating you.

    "if you can't picture the effort, and if you cannot see the value in those discussion..."

    Of course I can visualize what you are describing--it just doesn't work the way (or to the extent) you postulate, in my opinion.
    Of course I can see the value in "those" discussion--that's why I repeatedly applauded your level of EFFORT, and stuck it out--hoping for a resolution, not a withdrawl, not a surrender. I don't care so much whether you are proved right or wrong, I just want the outcome to be authentic. Claiming victimhood as you back out the door doesn't square with "being too busy", and I'd be the very last person to "punch you in the face", literally or otherwise.

    That's why I feel used, Mark, that's why I can offer you little in the way of "understanding". Your sadness may be authentic, but its cause is not what you believe it to be.
  4. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
    Boston-Idaho
    Ratings: +43 / 0
    Hey Trevor,

    I really enjoy to interact with you (and other members here as well) thus I can't help my little lunch break turning into typing game again... : (

    I agree the rotation is really hard to picure... that's really is our major debating here... Lasso will calpse when you spin them (with hand on the side of the loop). but they will open out again when they being throw out (spin by themselves) in a circular motion. this is centrifugal force in action. see video (last 30 second)


    Centrifugal and CM are also difficult to imagine during the circular motion. I agree...




    Advice well taken!Trevor, I will look into more practical view next time. I will look at the theory more cautious when applying it in the real casting!

    Above paragraph you have written is true, Only IF the circular movement making a even V speed movement along the periphery of the circle. so the V vector at the 10:30 (partial V to the horizontal direction)will be smaller than 12:00 (100% to the horizontal dir.) (because only partial of the V devote to the horizon). However, if you speed up the V during the 10:30 position. Adding more acceleration, after the A point. Then the partial V (horizontal direction) should be bigger than the V at 12:00. This what you describe (and we have being debating) why the line will over run the rod tip/overhang. I say no, because my partial V (horizontal) in the 10:30 position is still larger than the V at 12:00. because the massive acceleration during the motion from Point A to poin C (old diagram). I hope this explanation help to resolve our debating...

    Say hello to the kid for me... I am going to play with a twin babies (1 year old) in my friend's house this afternoon...it should be a relaxing exercise! : ) (PM you tonight...)

    take care, bro

    Mark
  5. TrevorH Active Member

    Posts: 428
    Bellingham, WA, US.
    Ratings: +32 / 0
    Mark,

    Again, I don't think the CM is difficult to imagine, I believe it only exists in the wilds of YOUR imagination. Note how stiff the rope is. That quality is essential. The rope is not a 'soft' object relative to the forces being applied to it. The fly line IS. The other problem with the rope analogy is that the roper takes some time to get the rope going properly. Forming a d-loop doesn't provide that opportunity, and the closest analogy would be the spiral I already mentioned, and you know how that plays out.

    The problem with trying to compensate for the natural decline in horizontal velocity of angular motion by accelerating the rod is that it is inherently inefficient. You are working harder through a range that yields less for your work. Surely you can see that.

    I have to say, I understand Greg wanting to see and be involved in the outcome of this discussion, as he participated. I also feel bad about all the swipes you had to take. Some of them were in good fun, and the kind of thing you should expect espousing theories like this, but some were a bit much.

    Good luck. I'm out.
  6. fisshman26 Member

    Posts: 360
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Ratings: +18 / 0
    ever try making a lassoo out of a fly line????
  7. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
    Boston-Idaho
    Ratings: +43 / 0
    Hey Trevor,

    I understand the rope lasso probably is not the good example. But the CM position and centrifugal force is the thing I have been struggle for showing how it shape me driving the forward stroke. Just let you know this is separate effect than the downward stroke. As I mentioned earlier, I agree with you, how to get to the point A is another story, and could be discussing separately. The main focus of this thread, in my view, is how the continuous downward stroke will adding 30 % more energy to it, if there are any. here I provide 2 examples to deal with 1) centrifugal forces and CM BEFORE reach A point (dealing with how to get there...), Ed think we still should use parallel stroke to align the line. I think you are the same minded too. I have different view on this, I think centrifugal force/ and acting -reacting forces can deal with the unaligned line shape PRIOR reach the point A.

    please see the last 10 sec to see the single pivot all the way through and the centrifugal forces.


    2) I will explain my view of downward stroking after A point will adding 30% power to the cast.


    in 1) I think snake roll is a good analogy, not sure if this is similar to you spiral analogy. We know snake roll are easier for beginner to learn, because several reasons. 1. Snake roll is putting more centrifugal forces into line, thus load the rod deeper. Second the line has more tension at the time that it eliminate slack line naturally. third, it also touch the surface in a smaller portion because of the rotation tension. iF you agree those 3 element. I think you won't have trouble to relate Josh Linn's video. After the perry poke, and gentle pull back, he is doing this half roll to increase the line tension, almost like static roll cast (single handed cast) to propel the line in front of him. In my view, and opinion, there is no straight line line up when he is doing this more roll cast kind of dynamic perry poke,

    2) downward stroke depart of the straight line. I know we have different view about the stroke. Efficient or not efficient aside. I hope you understand my point about you still CAN adding more speed though extra acceleration even this rod tip is curving, by adding partial force to it. If you replace my V2 to F2 in the diagram (F: force.) then it probably will be more clear about the adding force. One of the reason that the video is hard to freeze is due to this accelerating more speed process. Otherwise it will just like you described, it is just follow though if the V is constant through out the circle and as soon as the tip divert from straight line, the skagit line and overhang will catch up immediately, thus there are no force can be added as soon as the tip off the straight line. Hope this explain...

    I would love to discuss more with you, please feel free to contact me and please accept my apology if I forgot to answer your questions or lost the points in your previous posts. I have been going through some crazy mess now... can't put much time on this subject or internet any more...

    sincerely,

    Mark
  8. TrevorH Active Member

    Posts: 428
    Bellingham, WA, US.
    Ratings: +32 / 0
    Mark,

    What I see in the last 10 seconds is a cast that can be more accurately described in terms of how flexible the SLP "requirement" actually is than it can be by being compared to a steel ball on a chain.
  9. fisshman26 Member

    Posts: 360
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Ratings: +18 / 0
    ok how about this, if you were to take a spinning rod and plug and cast it......once the energy of the rod is realeased and the plug is on its way can I speed up the plug by forcing the rod down???????
  10. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Posts: 1,826
    Roy, WA
    Ratings: +13 / 0
    View attachment 46664


    ...headed for the magic twenty. I can feel the excitement.
    I think I'm entranced by the lasso guy. Can't wait to see what's next!
  11. Greg Holt Active Member

    Posts: 154
    camano island, wa.
    Ratings: +54 / 0
    Roll credits...

    Props (more or less in order of appearance):
    Javelins
    Hammers and chains
    trebuchets
    atlatls
    tomahawks
    baseball bats
    golf clubs
    tennis balls
    framing hammers
    rowboats
    baseballs
    lassos
    speeding bullets
    spinning rods
    plugs.

    Special Guest Appearance: Men in tight speedos, thrusting inappropriately.

    Stunts and Special Effects: hmmm...better not.
  12. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Posts: 1,826
    Roy, WA
    Ratings: +13 / 0
    well, I wouldn't want to be perceived as personally attacking Mark,
    but I must say we're at page fifteen and still don't see how any of this tightens a loop or improves my cast.
    reference post #1.
    Still, the lasso guy was entertaining. LMFAO was better though.
    Life is a carnival, after all.
  13. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

    Posts: 17,592
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Ratings: +1,540 / 9
    Spaz, you've made it quite clear that you don't need any help improving your cast or tightening your loops. Maybe the results will be different for other people. Maybe not. Certainly in fifteen pages there is something for everyone.
  14. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
    Boston-Idaho
    Ratings: +43 / 0
    Greg, one point at a time, I will finish your quest no matter how long it will take.


    point C when the overhang rotate up, all the system reach the highest speed, is the point we stop and release the line at the same time.
    Trebuchet don’t need to stop because of this very same reason, the line at the highest speed and on the farest part perpendicular to the force, like hammer thorw, you don’t need stop, but you need to cut the tension. Trebuchet cut the tension by not attaching anything to the pumpkin, it uses sling to hold it. So when the angle is right, it released. (this is the same principle that Ed use centrifugal force #1 second video) On the other said, the catapult is different. You need stop to get the pumpkin going, why? Please explain to me your version. My answer here is there is no overhang to cut the sharp angle and let the centrifugal force to fully work out the departure. Thus the dramatic shock from the bar created opposite acceleration direction ( a) and the pumplin flip out. This is the same principle SLP and hard stop in Chris’s cast (#1 First video – page1).

    Trebuchet : pay attention to the sling, this is our overhang, see what angle they release the highest speed.



    Catapult: no sling/overhang, hard stop is required.


    The first diagram I draw, paste here for reference.

    [IMG]
  15. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
    Boston-Idaho
    Ratings: +43 / 0
    Greg,

    Obviously, the rod is capable to manipulate the line in any stage otherwise the cast won’t happen. “In common usage the term "inertia" may refer to an object's "amount of resistance to change in velocity" (which is quantified by its mass), or sometimes to its momentum, depending on the context. The term "inertia" is more properly understood as shorthand for "the principle of inertia" as described by Newton in his First Law of Motion”

    Momentum is much suitable for us to discuss those casting mechanics. It written as p = m * v (= (m)mass times (v)velocity). There are two kind of momentum. Linear momentum (Chris video) for linear movement, and angular momentum (Ed’s video) for rotation movement and also there could have hybrid form.
    As you can see, the speed up process during cast was due to adding forces to the object. As soon as you add force in the same moving direction, it will speed up, thus momentum goes up. (equation: p = m * v). So even adding force in the rotation of my diagram is “small” because of partial vector. It will still increase the speed in the horizonal direction, thus increase the momentum.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum

    (today I have a bit extra time in hand, (holiday), so I will try to bust out more answers to you) Mark
  16. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
    Boston-Idaho
    Ratings: +43 / 0
    Greg,

    Dynamic pivot is what you see in Chris video. By shifting pivot point back and forth to create the longer SLP (straight line rod tip path), a lot of long liner rock their body to achieve this long SLP acceleration. Henrick Mortensen also doing this in his underhand cast. See video below.


    However, Goran’s original invention – underhand technique is different than those long SLP pivot shifting. His pivot is relatively fixed (he does do some drift sometimes) see video clip of Goran. His main idea and invention of underhand technique if often misinterpreted, sadly. It not just use lower hand to power the rod. Let me repeat this again, it is NOT just power the rod use lower hand. The very important concept is forgotten, it is shifting the casting center to the caster and use relatively fix pivot, “then” use dominant hand to do the power. The first part of this top hand move to place the pivot point to the caster is very crucial and this reveal in his drawing of how beneficial could be to move the pivot point closer to your body.
    Pay attention to 1:48 sec - 2:20 sec

    It eliminate the not necessary drift and put the best stroke on top of his head, short stroke, tight loop. Keep in mind, he is using short SLP. NOT rotation circular movement at all. That is the point I want to make in the previous posts that IF YOU FIX YOUR PIVOT POINT, THE ONLY WAY TO DO THE SLP IS SHORT STROKE, THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN HAVE SLP BY USING LONG STROKE. THERE IS NO ROD IN THE WORLD CAN DO THAT.

    Just a side note for people who believe the long stroke in soft rod can achieve SLP even casting in a single pivot point…(I think this is totally impossible in physics and you can test this at home)

    I have a dredger 12’9 6/7 and there is no way dredge can do long stroke and still remain SLP. You can test this by yourself, try to mimic Ed’s long stoke and watch the rod position, (tape the mid-low blank with colorful tape; because this is the place rod stop bending). So if you think the rod tip deflection will compensate the rotation arc and make the line go SLP (which I think it is impossible). Then you have to test this and report it back. (hope this also respond to Trevor’s SLP comment in Ed’s cast)

    OK, time out, need to work, Merry Christmas! Mark
  17. fisshman26 Member

    Posts: 360
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Ratings: +18 / 0
    I think the casting rod with a lead weight is still a valid argument against the trebuchet (or this theory of changing the loop) as you have overhang and a weight like a pumpkin but once you release the weight on the forward cast-stop a follow thru or whatever you want to call it will not speed up or make said weight go any further.
  18. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
    Boston-Idaho
    Ratings: +43 / 0
    Bruce,

    You are absolutely right!!

    However, we are talking about the movement before the overhang turn vertical. I you can picture the moment right BEFORE spin casting release the plug. That's the moment we are talking... the reason you mis-depic the moment is because the spin casting always shoot for 45 degree higher than horizontal direction in fly casting. if you rotate the spey casting upward 45 drgree (the new trajectory like spin casting). Then you will realized the overhangs are doing the same, the rod are pulling the same.

    Hope this help explain.
    (really need to go... will back tonight or tomorrow)
    Happy Holiday!

    Mark
  19. fisshman26 Member

    Posts: 360
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Ratings: +18 / 0
    You can easily adjust the angle of your cast with a spinning rod and you still will not speed up or make your weight go further with the follow thru
  20. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Posts: 1,826
    Roy, WA
    Ratings: +13 / 0
    I have posted post#1 in this thread to refresh all's memory.

    your most recent comment:
    "It eliminate the not necessary drift and put the best stroke on top of his head, short stroke, tight loop. Keep in mind, he is using short SLP. NOT rotation circular movement at all. That is the point I want to make in the previous posts that IF YOU FIX YOUR PIVOT POINT, THE ONLY WAY TO DO THE SLP IS SHORT STROKE, THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN HAVE SLP BY USING LONG STROKE. THERE IS NO ROD IN THE WORLD CAN DO THAT.

    Just a side note for people who believe the long stroke in soft rod can achieve SLP even casting in a single pivot point…(I think this is totally impossible in physics and you can test this at home)

    I have a dredger 12’9 6/7 and there is no way dredge can do long stroke and still remain SLP. You can test this by yourself, try to mimic Ed’s long stoke and watch the rod position, (tape the mid-low blank with colorful tape; because this is the place rod stop bending). So if you think the rod tip deflection will compensate the rotation arc and make the line go SLP (which I think it is impossible). Then you have to test this and report it back. (hope this also respond to Trevor’s SLP comment in Ed’s cast)

    OK, time out, need to work, Merry Christmas! Mark"


    You have just answered the question, why do they build scandi-specific rods? But not fulfilled your original postulate, that of an alternative to straight rod path.
    This is part one.