in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. Part two:
    You have successfully reinvented, or I should say, reverse engineered- scandicasting. I say that with a smile, it's not an attack. You have simply taken the -very- long way around to say what some of us already know.

    Mark, everyone, have you ever felt the love? that's the rod blank feedback telling you all forces are in balance and you are achieving the directed transmission of energy we are all looking for, in every single cast. I could go back if I knew how multiquoting works and pull every objection I've made out, and they would add up. But you can feel it, when all the forces discussed in this thread and others...are harmoniously propelling a line. The rod, technique and caster conspire to achieve it. We bring it all together to direct the rod tip and therefore direct the line.

    I didn't understand that in this whole thread you were speaking strictly about Andersson-style underhanding, specifically with underlined rods- with it's abbreviated A>B, or what you have called "relatively fixed pivot point". The premise breaks down badly when applied to a skagit head, because A>B/moving fulcrum is how we achieve relatively straight tip path>>straight line path with a softer rod or a rod that is properly loaded. In the Goran video, he is popping casts out there and he barely accesses the middle of the blank. It's a vid, after all, that's not a heavy criticism. But I think you may have gone astray by drawing conclusions from it. With a heavier head, standing waist deep, Goran will both drift and input a very short A>B stroke. He must. The line demands it. Mid/ Longbellies, wow, I can't even bring that in here. This thread's not even on the same planet as longbelly casting.

    Yes, it is true that you cannot have SLP, with practically any rod, using a strictly fixed pivot point, due to the proportional relationship of the length of the arc to the radius... there's a proportional relationship between A>B/moving fulcrum/rod length/line length/line weight and characteristics/degree and timing of power application...all these are factored in when deciding how to cast a particular setup and all are relative to the individual caster. And I totally agree that you can't achieve SLP with the Dredger using a fixed pivot point. Of course not, you'd have to shorten the arc so far that there'd be no power. Using rotation only, without a moving fulcrum...well, you'll see that at a beginner's casting class, but only the first one! So, fast rod-short stroke-abbreviated A>B is scandi. OK, I knew that before this thread started.

    So here's my question: it's not an attack, it's an invitation-
    Can you reconcile your assertion at the beginning of the thread (straight rod path principle not required), with the latest comment (where achieving SLP seems to be a top priority).
    What do you say we get to the point.
    regards, and merry Christmas to you and yours.

    BTW, a suggestion. Don't ignore this post. Take it head on, bluntly, with a cogent answer that a regular guy can understand. When you do that, you engender respect in your readers, even as you are demonstrating mastery of the concept. Just a helpful hint from a guy who teaches people as part of his job.
  2. Speyspaz,

    Santa is kind enough to visit me last night, brought me a great life lesson and also mentioned I should continue to be kind and generous to other people this year. so here is the answer for you. just see it as your morning surprise from Santa and again please respect others and your welcome to join the discussion. thank you.

    First , I have mention those casting mechanics difference between Ed and Goran in the post #104 so you might want to go back and check it out again. here I briefly pasted them here for your reference. see I how mentioned the DIFFERENCE in straight line rod tip path BTEWEEN them (SLRTP)
    here is the drawing I recall from Goran's underhand technique.
    noted how he put the pivot point to his own casting center (video above, 1:48-2:30 sec), created a very short stroke in a fashion of SLRTP (straight line rod tip path).
    also Noted the lower panel was indicated the rod tip dipped in front WITHOUT OVERHANG. (we need to keep in mind, Ed and Tellis all using overhang, and my whole argument is the new concept of utilizing overhang to generate extra rotational- pulling power and make a perfect loop) I have put this difference in overhang by using two ancient saige weapons Trebuchet versus Catapult. please see post # 214

    Can you picture the difference between Goran's casting stroke and Ed's? (they both DO NOT rock their body back and forth during casting stroke) also here is the question for you, why his casting technique only will work for SHORT scandi head? why this up hand single pivot point technique won't work for LONG line casting (say75-85' head). Mark
  3. Mark,
    It is indeed a gift to me that you answered directly. Kudos for your stones. This is growth.
    I approach casting experimentally and have tried a few crazy things myself, and I appreciate new ideas...reference Skandit! so now that you've explained the premise we can all work on it.
    The last couple times I went out I did try this concept out, particularly for a few hours yesterday. I used a 75' shooting head on my 15' Greased Liner and a 600 gr skagit on a classic 9140 Brownie. I managed to get a cast out with 9' of overhang on the Brownie, a new record for me, but I almost dropped a nut doing it and it was a very very ugly loop that was created. The longbelly was hopeless for me unless I kept the overhang at three feet or less, but then it cast very nicely and with minimal effort. That may be more of a criticism of my casting than your idea, that's one possibility that I accept. Some days its harder to find my longbelly groove than others.
    BTW, I touched a few salmon with both the floater and skagit systems, but nothing more than one brief hookup.
    I try to get out for a couple hours this AM if I can, it's sort of my gift to self when the schedule allows. I'll take a scandi outfit and see if I get any results with it.
    I have some thoughts myself about why or why not your concept is accurate, but I need a couple more hours casting on it.
  4. Good Morning to all Merry Christmas

    Couple of notes to think on
    This has been covered but I will touch on one point this morning.
    The Straight Line Path of the rod tip is the flight path that the tip takes during casting.
    The flight path can be strait , a curve or even a circle.
    The Flight path may be domed where the rod tip goes above the intended path (opening wide forward or backward loop ).
    But is should not be dipped below or tailing loop will be formed.

    To see more look at this site

    To take a good look at casting in ovals and parallels this is good a book
    A Fly Fisher's Life: The Art and Mechanics of Fly Fishing By Charles Ritz

    Must leave to start on Christmas Dinner

  5. I caught a black and white steelhead yesterday. The cast wasn't pretty, I mended it onto shape, then the damn fish took on the 4 strip of line. Moral of the story is that it doesn't really matter as long as you get it out there and there are fish present.

    Go Sox,
  6. I gave it a try with a 1407S for a couple hours this morning, and want to try another rod before I say anything else. I have one rod in mind that I can practically write my name in the air with, might have better luck with that. I'll come back soon.

    But like Aaron says, doming the cast sure widens that loop!
  7. Mark,
    I made an attempt to get up to speed on this disuussion, but quickly saw I hadn't the time to digest it all.
    Could you, in a few words, give a quick summary of your theory on straight rod tip travel and tight loops?
    What are you saying? I sincerely want to know. Perhaps the thread is now not about straight rod tip travel. I and maybe others would be greatful for a clear and concise picture of where this thread is at.
  8. Mark here is something to think about.........Maximum speed should be kept until the end of the casting movements and the rod should be stopped at the correct power angle. This allows the tip to deflect in the same direction as the intended flight path of the line and form a neat, fast casting loop. If the rod is pushed or stopped too low, the deflection of the rod tip will bring the lower leg of the loop with it resulting in loss of directional power and speed
  9. Bruce, your recent text to Mark (partial) below:

    "Maximum speed should be kept until the end of the casting movements and the rod should be stopped at the correct power angle. This allows the tip to deflect" (did you mean 'unload'?) "in the same direction as the intended flight path of the line and form a neat, fast casting loop."

    Well said, friend.

    I'm coming to the conclusion that Mark percieves this exact thing happening by forming a slightly above horizontal rod finish with a sharply upswept heavily-loaded tip at the near-finishing point of his stroke. Whether reality matches his perception, whether it adds energy to an otherwise well executed cast, well...I think I'll just wait for the "movie" to come out.

  10. Hi Dan,

    No problem, let me try to summarize this thread one more time.

    If you reread my original post #1 on the thread LINK, please closely read the words and the motivation of my intension. First, I acknowledged there is great discussion and suggestions about Straight line rod tip path (SLRTP) acceleration and force to create a tight /perfect loop. Second, I mentioned, there is MORE THAN one way (SLRTP) to create a perfect / tight loop. And I used Ed’s video as an example. This alternative forces and acceleration is coming from circular motion and applied the force to OVERHANG and relative SHORT shooting head system. If you ask me what is this alternative force? that other than SLRTP. I will called it Ed’s Trebuchet forces (ET). : ) BTW, Who doesn’t like ET? The force is cool as hell as soon as you got a glimpse on it!

    Briefly to answer your question and summarize this thread, there is NOTHING WRONG with the SLRTP force. They create a traditional nice loop. However, as a modern spey caster, we can’t ignore the use of ET force and as you can see some casters already using it (even without noticed it) (see my examples and diagrams in this thread). The most pure form of casting from using ET force that I have ever seen, of course, is Ed ward’s angular acceleration and the use of the conservatiion law of angular momentum See link post#175 for more detail. Ed’s cast rotate from the side horizontal plane, and use continuous move and constant load (CM/CL) seamlessly transfer to vertical plane and power through the downward stroke use a single pivot point.

    The hybrid form of different forces (SLRTP + ET), could be used as you can see in the Tellis cast, or my the other cast (ET+SLRTP) video LINK. Noted It can be done is any of the hybrid form, but IMO the cast is not as powerful as ET forces all the way though. Especially if you are dealing with the heavy sinktip and heavy fly.
    Tellis (0:55 sec) SLRTP + ET downward stroke

    My ET circular poke + SLRTP forward stroke

    Here the little cip will tell you the reason why the circular motion is so powerful in dealing with the sunken heavey junk. Pay attention to the 2:00 sec. (a string in the glass tube)

    Overall, again, there is NOTHING WRONG with SLRTP, as well as ET forces, just recognize it and use it on the right place and right moment.
    Cheers, Mark.
  11. Mark,
    Thank you for the fill in and I am going to work my way through your references. I have to say it's hard for me to see how any force vector applied in any direction other than in the direct line you intend the flyline to travel can do anything other than diminish the energy of the cast. This ET force idea is intriguing but doesn't sit right with me at this moment. I will get back later.
  12. Mark,

    Wonderful and brilliant YouTube video of Prof. Miller,,,, I always liked real world examples of physics to illustrate basic principles for those not schooled in Force Vectors, Acceleration and Integral Calculus.

  13. Welp, I tried these concepts out with several rod/line combinations, and the only deflection I managed to get was with a late release on a heavy skagit head that had a touch too much overhang. Giant teardrop-shaped collision loop most of the time, robbed distance/speed from the cast, and I got all that in exchange for working twice as hard.
    I'm not a fan yet, Mark.

    I think the value in this thread might be found in explaining how overhang may assist the cast (in moderation) once that tack is taken; but that the claim of tightening the loop or increasing speed/distance of the cast is an overstatement.
  14. Hi Greg,

    Just have a quick look over the speypages last night and it seems you guys are having a lot of fun over there... : ) and it seems some of you get caught up on the subject of releasing power. Because I believe you are a good dude, so I will like to point you to the right direction again, please read my posts in this thread, #82, #96 and #104 (and please give my friend Fred a break!!). To me, the answer has already stated there clearly. Briefly, the energy is released on the point C in the original diagram.

    My statement and explanation about this motion is adding force to the flyline, below is my explanation.

    After the A point, the rod tip continue to drive downward with fast acceleration.The rod is putting tension on the overhang that cuased the overhang to rotate and pulling the Skagit head to the downward motion. (noted, the energy has NOT been released at this point yet, let's the reason I call it "pulling downward") This force can be calculated as the centrifugal force centered on the pivot point located at the front portion of the rod (depends on the rod action, on soft rod, the pivot would be located on the lower part of the rod, on the fast rod, the pivot point would be located more close to the rod tip ), this rotation force caused the rolling motion of the Skagit head .

    I sincerely suggest you go back to read my responses to you...
    Hope this explain your puzzles.

    BTW, I have finished all of your questions about 4 days ago, some of them are sitting in my computer (not published yet), but I assume you probably already lost the interests in knowing them since you did not respond to my latest answers to you (not sure if you like it or not), so I will just save the trouble to post them here.
    take care, Mark
  15. Hi Speyspaz,

    I am sorry to hear it doesn't work out for you. But please don't give yourself a hard time, regarding the fact that you only head out twice and maybe couple hours of practicing. All due respect, it will require longer time to get a good handle on it than what you think.

    Not sure how you rank your skill, so far, all I have seen people doing this ET forces are instructors, if not the most skillful casters. So it should take a while to get use to the feel and the timing, of course the cast I mentioned here is just an alternative ET power application, you can fish the SLRIP all your life. I can be sure of that.

    In addition,
    For the poll you posted on the speypages is quite interesting, but due to the lack of time in my recent schedule. I only can view it occasionally. The results, to date, are very interesting, but not surprising to me at all. About roughly 16% percent of people (combined category 4 and 5) might has experienced this ET power application, and say, probably only half of them is doing the way I have described here. That' is about 8%. So to me, this is another evidence to show you, you can not make the cast happen is totally normal and understandable... instead, who can make the cast "happen" is really the weird 10% guys.

    Just a side note, the reason I decided to post this thread here in the WFF is not because this is a local forum, quite opposite... there are many excellent international casters and local casters (I know) frequently visit this forum (and still posting) and I will assume the poll will be pretty similar to the speypages, if not higher. And of course,being a local guy and have learned so much from this website, it's always time to give back here... so please don't see WFF as a local forum and talk "differently" when you go over to the speypages.

    In addition, if you and Greg are really into casting mechanics (as I do), there is another wonderful european based website called There are more THCI and engineers there, I am a member there too. But just let you know, even the highly specialized niche in casting mechanics in sexyloop. It take 31 pages for them to figure out the fulcrum is not necessary located on the rod itself. Instead, the ICR (Instant Center of Rotation) (which I also used in my diagrams here in this thread to indicate the power) are more appropriate in analyzing the casting mechanics. And after the length discussion, probably still only "handful" of people understand the concept. What is my intension to say all of this?? There is no local or international division difference regarding to internet forums. Everything is international, and you need to choose the words carefully, not like talking in your living room when you are dealing with "local" forum. Of course this is just my suggestions to you and my personal opinions.


  16. Mark,
    I sense a certain unpleasant emotional undercurrent beginning to arise within your comments. That's regrettable, but not unexpected.

    Why would you assume every discussion involving fly casting mechanics on every site is about you or your methods? My exchange on another site with your "my friend Fred", involved a very important mis-statement of fact that he posted, but alas, was unwilling, or perhaps, unable to correct on his own. I didn't attempt to involve you nor invite your participation in that dialog, so I'm uncertain as to why you would insert yourself into that conversation in such an obtuse and surreptitious fashion. Since you did, perhaps you should read his mis-statements for yourself, then consider correcting him, since he is your "friend". An individual as well-informed as yourself should have no trouble locating them. Then, having been properly informed, he can re-post corrected statements.

    By all means, continue to publish answers to my questions, I will read them all carefully. You would be mistaken to believe that I am in complete opposition to your position. You would also be mistaken to assume I have lost interest "in them", as you put it.

    You may have reached a conclusion on this issue, given your immense investment of effort and risk to credibility. I have not reached a conclusion, and I have no such chip in the game, so to speak. I am interested solely in the truth of the matter, and would encourage you to stick to that theme.
    Greg Holt
  17. Greg,

    Fair enough, we will continue the communication, without time frame limit.

    I am glad you finally sense I have an ongoing "unpleasant" feeling toward you and some other people here. I am here for sharing, but most importantly for sharing information with friends AND people who has positive energy. For people with negative attitudes, the negatives also bounced back.

    Since in the moment I "sensed" your intention of posting in this thread is more than debating/ or knowing the truth... see post # 200 with less compassion and #201 , I switched to different mode to your responses. Sorry, I am just one of the many normal souls...

    Answers from me will still have to wait to be delivered ... but not anytime soon in the current "mode". Just to be honest with you. I also have no interest in joining discussion in the thread in speypages FYI.

    (maybe it will be better for you to figure it out yourself, since you are a very fast learner and I can sense your out going positive energy, at least in the


  18. Netiquette's different there Mark...every forum is different. It's fun to let my Jersey out once in awhile. Especially on passive-aggressive hotairbags.

    The thread on Spey pages is fun, participative, and seems to be going places without being overcontrolled, leaving anyone out, or playing holier than thou. A refreshing change of pace. Sorry you don't have time in your busy schedule to post, but I'm sure it'll go along fine without you.

    In that spirit, I still want to see some vid. Of you. Busting out the big ones.
    I'll just sit here, looking back up your nose at you, waiting for you to deliver. We reach that point often with you, don't we?
  19. Mark, sorry but I fail to see the continous roll on the forward cast in your video but I do notice one thing that is pretty important in this converstation, I will let you figure it out and also how much overhang is essential to the rolling trebuchet cast? It does not appear you have more than a couple feet at most. Do you think that this continous roll in the manner that you did the cast in the video would work for a longer floating line?
  20. Ha .... I am sure the ongoing thread over speypages is more peaceful.... see who make a big changes regarding to posting attitudes... it would be fun to put those two threads together side by side... sorry, I just can't resist... but you guys are doing good. Definitely doing much better without me...



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