in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,315
    Boston-Idaho
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    Hey Bruce,

    Sorry, I really want to end this thread, so I no longer take new questions. There are just too much unwanted energy in this thread. I think for some of us, it is a good time to call it end for good. Maybe you can start another thread,and if I find my time, I will participate. :thumb:

    Take care, brother
    sincerely,

    Mark
  2. fisshman26 Member

    Posts: 355
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Ratings: +18 / 0
    Mark, sorry you feel that way.
    Be well!
  3. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Posts: 1,818
    Roy, WA
    Ratings: +10 / 0
    Damn, I thought we were going to hit the magic 20 mark. Mark.

    Mark, I hope you use the interim time to make some video of you, in a real fishing situation, actually demonstrating this "revolutionary" cast, because what you've shown so far is not revolutionary. It's overhang, dude. With short little heads.

    I appreciate the study you've put into casting mechanics, very interesting stuff, and educational--no hard feelings-- but buddy, you have to deliver the goods sooner or later if you want to be the next "speythority"
  4. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 767
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Well then, we don't need Mark to continue this fine conversation "In Search of the Perfect Loop". Let just change the scope of the conversation to mid to long bellies (60'+). I myself have just recently moved into this catagory from the Short belly side (I use 38 - 55' heads typically). I've built a couple of lines, one 62' the other 65', that I've been working with. And yes, I do plan to use them this winter. Practiced today for a few hours with my 65' head with 15' 125grn tips, floater and sinkers, so let me get it kicked off with the first question:

    Had some pretty good distance today, but was working on my loops and line speed...At times had some really nice loops but others ended in collision or just died. What are some fundamentals I should be aware of...the ingredients of a nice tight loop cast?

    Rivers have been really rising...when they get to where I can safely wade I'll get some video up.

    Thanks James
  5. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Posts: 1,818
    Roy, WA
    Ratings: +10 / 0
    oh, what the hell. Let's go 20.
    James, how far back did you cut the tip? .060 for heavier tips, .050 for polys. My preference only. A lot has to do with the line you used as a base. I've used Grandspey, Midspey, and Powerspey Rio lines as a base, and they all carry tips, but all ask for a different stroke. Their lengths roughly correspond to the lengths you've mentioned. All seem to demand a highish stop but want me to drop the tip after release. You can cut back a DT line but it's a bitch. Really, a bitch.
    You're not likely to get dryline comparable loops when fishing tips off a longer belly, I set my expectations a bit lower in terms of both the loop height (a little wider is better) and distance (due to shorter flight time + carrying the tip and less efficient turnover) but still major potential for sweetness. Again, only what I've experienced. There are guys who can fling a tip on a longbelly like it's not there, but those guys aren't me...

    One of the best lines for fishing tips is the CND GPS, they're built for it. Also, the Nextcast Winter Authority lines are bombers!
    Depending on what your base belly is, I might advise cutting the sinktip back to 12' if it's like, say, an 8 wt DC rio tip. Another option to consider might be a 12-14' poly.

    You may find, as I did, that a little more altitude and oomph on the sweep will be required to get the anchor far enough up to set right. However, hitting the forward stroke too hard will certainly produce collision loops, a more vertical forward stroke will serve well there. On the forward stroke you have to trust the line's mass and not force it, otherwise you'll wedge it and really screw the pooch.
  6. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 767
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    I can't find my notes...garage is packed trying to sell the house...but this is what I remember, I bought a used Midspey cut the rear taper and running line loose, cut back the tip about 16' and use 125grn sink tips or a loop on a floating tip made form an old delta line. The floating tip feels a little light, weighs in around 80grns. It's my Poor Mans' Winter Authority.

    That's pretty much my assessment... too much juice too soon on the forward stroke. About everytime I talked myself through the forward stroke, after a nice pause as I raised the rod (Vertical) to the firing position, to feel the load and accelerate to a stop, the loops were awesome and the line zipped out with authority. I was pretty impressed with the sink tips, at times the tip did fail to roll out but that was just me. I was bombing out around 115-120' pretty consistantly with s3/s4 tip and a #2 skunk. Loops where my issue, some (30%) loops would just be wide open and ugly...others (30%) tailed or collided. I wish I got some video today, I actually think my left hand casting was better than my right today.

    By the way I'm using: 14'8" Guideline Act 4 10/11. Line Modified Midspey (785grns).
    Side note: Was thinking about building a 10' cheater to get the head length to 75'....should I build with a taper?
  7. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 767
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    By the way, would like to buy or borrow a long belly line, if you got one your not using. Was thinking about springing for one of those Carron 75lines or 85 if someone could talk me into it.

    James.
  8. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

    Posts: 17,267
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Ratings: +1,234 / 9
    James, what weight? I have a delta long or two, and you know I can't begin to cast them.
  9. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 767
    wa
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    What do you have? I've got a few rods they could go with.
  10. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

    Posts: 17,267
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Ratings: +1,234 / 9
    Delta Long 8/9 multi tip.
    Wulff TT 10 with an 80' head.
    When I grow up I want to be able to cast these. I'd loan them out for a bit if you wish.
  11. fisshman26 Member

    Posts: 355
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Ratings: +18 / 0
    James, I have some demo Carron lines you could try they will throw poly`s and light tips right off the end without cutting and if you want to throw heavy stuff you can cut back but not far. What rod would it be for?
  12. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Posts: 1,818
    Roy, WA
    Ratings: +10 / 0
    The Grandspey and Midspey I have are 10/11s, cut back pretty hard. I was last fooling with them last spring last time I modified them, I'd have to dig to find the specs, but I was using them on my 15' 8/9 Deer Creek and they seemed in the right weight zone. I can't remember which line I ended up settling on, will have to work it out again later this winter.
    The Powerspey has been cut yet again to a stub, basically has become a 7/8 skandit head, and still doesn't cast well....powerspeys....
    If it was my cheater, I'd try to find a hank of line with a taper in it, but I'd be paying close attention to matching diameters, maybe even consider using Int line! hmm.
    You're welcome to try any of my lines too, 'course that's a sad little offer compared to Bruce's Carrons.
  13. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 767
    wa
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    If I built a cheater it would be for the butt end...but an intermediate tapered leader for the tip sounds like a possibility, I have a bunch of Guideline DDC remnants.
  14. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 767
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Bruce, that would be awesome! The only long rod I've got is the Guideline Act 4 14'8" 10/11. Also a 7136z and a LeCie 12'6 8/9 and a couple of 7wt switch rods.

    James.
  15. Brady Burmeister Active Member

    Posts: 523
    OH
    Ratings: +114 / 0
    James, have you ever put a cheater on the butt end before? Do you weld it, or loop to loop? I'm just guessing, never done it, but I would think that a looped connection on the butt end might steal some smoothness from the d loop, possibly letting it hinge a bit. Just a thought.
  16. SPEYBUM Member

    Posts: 271
    CARNATION, WASHINGTON, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Brady
    I would just loop it until you get the desired effect then needle splice it to the head.
    Make sure of you splice to many heads have gone to the fishes from a slipped slice.
    Keep us posted as you your results.
  17. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 767
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Brady, I've never had a problem with it. I do try to build loops that are small. My biggest concern has always been creating flat spots.
  18. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 767
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    I too like to splice but it only works with like material as I like to weld them...I haven't lost a splice yet, but do check them before a day of fishing.
  19. Matt Burke Active Member

    Posts: 3,640
    Kenmore
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    Geezuz Speyspaz you really turned into a prolapsed asshole.
  20. John Hicks Owner and operator of Sea Run Pursuits

    Posts: 2,099
    Olympia
    Ratings: +150 / 1

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