in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. Holy Smoke this thread has changed around quite a bit.

    Most guys here in the UK still use a full sunk line for early season fishing, sink tips coming secondary, will not go into the reasons why as i have to go to work in a little while, so designing a rod in the UK that can't lift a long line off the bottom of the river would be pointless.

    Happy Hogmanay from the Highlands :beer1: ........... i can't reply over the next day or so as its party time here............ and i most likely will be ill with all the drinking that goes on here, nowhere takes in the new year like the Highlands of Scotland....... i have the liver to prove it. :D

    Gordon Macleod
    DTX Pro Staff.
  2. Greg,
    Here is the rest of the comments...

    Please check Tellis’ video and my frame by frame post # 3-4 frame

    5) It maybe around 10 oclock, without phantom cam, it is hard to tell at this moment. Keep in mind, how different in his casting stoke than Chris’ video. He has not intention to stop rod tip high, and by watching the video and the frame by frame analysis you can see the highest speed and release point is around 3.2-3.5 frame as James point out. Again, without high speed camera, I only can do this kind of analysis… buy this is good enough for suspect he is doing different thing than Chris’ video

    6) During the forward stroke the rod blank should remain loaded, the gradually increased acceleration can only add more and more pressure to the blank. (otherwise will be inproper load and might cause tailing loop- conclave sauce disk load) Thus the rod effective length during the rod load (direct length from rod tip point to rod butt point) shrink gradually until it reach the releasing point (highest rod load). If you can picture this rod bend during the entire forward stroke loading process. You will understand the RTP ( rod tip path) is actually go downward MORE at the last part of the stroke (the fastest acceleration) than it looks in diagram. So even at the 10:00 stop position it looks only small deviate from the SRTP line, it actually deviate more because of the biggest deflection occurred here.
    (downward flexing rod momentarily causing the line to rise).
    I am not sure what you mean here, but when the rod reach the releasing point (straighten rod tip), the line is at it’s highest speed and the overhang is releaseing, there is no force can be add to the line or overhang. (you can’t push a object with a rope, only can pull a object (with overhang)). The overhang as I mentioned earlirt is about 90 degree angle perpendicular to the horizontal line in the final releasing point. As we can almost see this in the Tellis’ video 3.2-3.5 frame (per James’ analysis which I did not be able to capture).

    7) There is no “overhang” structure in pitching, so don’t know how to relate it to casting.

    OK,Greg, I finished all your request. It officially end here.
    Happy New Year! My friends! It was a good discussion!

  3. I have several rods that are good for fullsink heads, but the one I'm specifically thinking about here is my 1407 Meiser S. I have fullsink heads for my 1306 Hybrid S but they're a pain if I'm standing deep, cast beautifully though...I recently snagged a 3 piece LeCie 13'7" 9/10 3 pc, and like Dan said above, that one is effortless.

    Question for Gordon- In your experience, what about the UK rods make them better at getting sinkheads out? I would jestingly say "better casters who do it all the time", but the rods have to have certain characteristics. I've picked up on a slightly stiffer tip and strong middle, like a Greased Line GLX might have, but the unique DTX action might bear some explaining.

    I will pray for your liver. A toast to you and yours!
  4. Perfect loop, hell, I'm still searching for a consistent loop that;

    1.) doesn't make me look like a total spaz
    2.) doesn't smack me in the back of the head or poke holes in my wading jacket
    3.) gets the line where it needs to be to present the fly

    ... from where I am currently in spey casting capability, "the perfect loop" is a moonshot for me :D

    If you want to review the non-perfect loop, please refer to my YouTube post a couple months ago :eek:

    I did get lots of great feedback from many on this forum that critiqued the cast -- still working at it!
  5. Mark, oh Mark,
    Thank you for completing the resposnses as promised.
    If you go back and re-read your own postings, (as I have done several times) from the very beginning of this thread, you will notice:

    1) a gradual shifting of your insistence from downward forces towards a combination of forward movement with downward late emphasis. Nothing wrong with that latter motion-- I never said there was (you wrongly assumed I did). Maybe that's the way threads evolve, but I'm pretty sure its not the scientific method. I suggest stating a thesis clearly, narrowly defined, with a minimum number of variables, well defined terms, and sharp focus thereafter.

    2) a tendency to utilize what I will call "selective viewing" (of presented video "evidence"), similar to the selective hearing (balance of coment deleted prior to posting)

    3) Deleted, with apologies to all, Mark especially. Knee jerk reaction. Not wise.

    4) no evidence that your interpretation of Center Mass as applied here is getting any traction. I couldn't help but notice the head length in your diagrams is only slightly longer than the rod; i.e. unrealistic. Since the center mass is not instanly present at the moment of infuence, only the front portion of a "ass heavy" head will be affected by the rotation forces you describe, and it will likely fail to function at all on long heads/lines.

    5) you never answered the question as to why a tennis ball, but not a fly line could be directed into multiple paths from an identical set-up. It would seem critically important to resolve such apparent inconsistencies, yet you somehow breeze right by them. Hint: it has to do with the tennis ball being a compact solid object as opposed to a long flexible one, presenting itself in the time and position of release quite differently, not to mention their behavioral differences in relation to a short tether such as overhang.

    6) very early responses by others sugessted the anchor played a vital role in the success of this rotational movement, perhaps you missed that one (Idid initially)--too bad.

    7) my citing of action/reaction principles as a primary factor in the rising rear portion of the front loop recieved the same subtle dismissal, much like your failure to explain the hump in the lower leg of the D loop in Tellis' video. (Al Buhr has excellent text and photos depicting this in his book).

    8) your insistence on a "fixed pivot", "pulling the rod down rotates the overhang", and "dragging the rod tip down is the most effective way to move the CM forward" are all still unproven at this point. (IMO).

    I have verified to my personal satisfaction in my "lawn experiment" that excessive downward force negatively effects forward travel. Perhaps you could take the time to verify this for yourself.

    In summation, though it was an interesting discussion, and I learned some things I hadn't previously known, it was less rewarding than I'd hoped-- perhaps you feel that way too, albeit for different reasons. If, in the future, you refine the nut of your argument into something genuinly novel, please share it. You previously hinted that it was the description, not the technique that was new, that may be as good as it gets.

    I posted (on the other site), a very brief description of the actual effects of the motion as I see them (without referring to you).You may wish to read it, if only for clarification of my opinion on this topic, since I had never previously offered it. You'll be able to locate it easily, having perused the thread previously.

    I'm hoping to leave the table peaceably here, hoping you can do the same. If you think you'be been "punched" again here, so be it. I can't control your response, but will certainly be held responsible for mine. If we interact in the future, it will be to our mutual benefit to establish and follow certain groundrules...

    With a polite, firm handshake, and a diffent perception,
  6. Greg, in reference to point #3...give us "other participants" more credit, as a self proclaimed victory has zero merit with most. Mark's been pounding a square peg in a round hole for quite awhile now and to mix metaphors in harmony with this thread, he's found it wise to put down the "shovel".

    This has been a great thread and exercise in validating the fundamentals and the importance of them.
  7. Hey freestoner, nothing wrong with looking like a total spaz...:thumb:
    I didn't start making casting progress until I became OK with sucking at it...strange alchemy of the mind. Humility took me out of frustration and into fun.
    One of the reasons I'm so adamant about SLP is that mastery of the basics is the #1 challenge for the huge majority of casters. It progresses to mastering the basics with a variety of lines and styles, no cheating allowed there. Otherwise, we can draw wrong conclusions and go off into dead ends, then wonder why it happened. As shorter heads have become the norm, shorter every year, we risk losing touch with the foundations of good casting.
    It's essential, IMHO, to be able to control a fully loaded rod with heads of substantial length, IF the quest is for top casting form. But for many guys that's not the quest. I just would never try to set myself up as an "expert" unless I can prove, on the spot, that I can walk the talk. Because there's always guys like me around, ready to call bullshit...and that's as it should be. Again, IMHO.

    It appears we have achieved the magic twenty pages in this thread.
  8. home!!!
  9. James, Thanks for summarizing Greg's points for me! Whew... I really got lost at some point... I totally agree with you! This is such a productive and wonderful thread!!

    At least when comparing to "the sister thread"... well... I just checking it again over there this morning, it seems there have a little progressive... Maybe too many Greenish "Butt"s buzzing in that thread?! and try to figure out how ET force work? :rofl: least it is a really entertaining thread over there...I am honored. Happy New Year!! My friends! : )

  10. this video explains everything.

    I'm kind of busy right now, but I'll answer all your questions in 100 posts or so.
  11. Are or will you be writing a book? If you are, I am will be anxious to read it;)!


  12. James,
    see revised post point #3, personal mail sent directly to you. (Mark as well, for whatever it's worth). Thanks for the attitude check.
  13. Hey friends,

    Just had a wonderful casting gathering with some friends this evening! Jerry, Fred, Mary and Lisa... What a day to end the fabulous year!
    see the little video clip below... : )

    Jerry picked up the ET force first time about 5 minutes of practice... his "chisel loop" is like a hot knife cut thought the butter...:thumb:
    Z-Axis 1016 and TFO 6/7 13' in action, with the rage line... Oops, it is light line style too... Happy New Year!!! my friends! Mark

    TCX 7126, Airflo Rage 360 grain + 10 poly. Great feel, wonderful set match! :D

    Squirrel? Lemming? toilet brush? or just a wind resistance dry fly? What a day on the water!! :D
  14. Sorry Mark,
    No offense intended, but I just can't buy it.
    This is not something new under the sun.
    You are accurately describing a cast that works well, but it' s not a new force.
    That's just how I'm seeing it.

    Green Butt
  15. Dan,
    I'm officially starting a contest here to create the best name for the "ET" force. Enter as often as you like. Winner to be announced at a later date. No prize will be awarded (unless Mark donates a cap with "ET" logo). The only rule is to be decently civil.

    My entries: ET--Excess Testosterone, Evidently Theoretical

    The good ones will soon be gone, act now!

  16. Greg,
    Wow, to be decently civil is a rare thing these days. That you put this in the equation speaks much for you imo.
    I am honored to be involved with all participants of this thread that have been decently civil. Actually, I think this whole thread has overall been decently civil, compared to some. To press understandings of our passion can be a challenging thing.
    So, where I am at is trying to figure out if this type of cast is a new force or just a nuance on an old story. At the moment I'm thinking it's an old story.
    Anyway, Happy New years to all of you guys.
    For the ET contest I'll submit Eccentric Thinking!!
  17. Greg, no apology needed. I wasn't trying to bust your chops. I was just trying to point out, that most of us are experienced enough to draw our own conclusions. Mark, keep it up, your free thinking is encouraging...remember Gallo was ridiculed and even imprisoned for saying the earth revolved around the sun, and we all know how that turned out.

  18. Hey Dan,

    I TOTALLY AGREE with you!! This is NOT something new... I am sure people have been doing this for many many years...[/SIZE]

    as I have said many times...The "NEW" thing here is to describe it in mechanic wise. And to acknowledge the DIFFERENCE concept from the SLRTP, please see my post #1.:thumb:

    Most importantly, modify it in your different fishing situations to suit your need!! please see post #230.

    Imagine a scenario: one day your student come to you and tell you he/she want to learn skagit Ed Ward style. Would you try to convince him/her SLRTP concept is important? and tell him/her SLRTP is the only way to make a tight/perfect loop?

    I don't know you are the Green Butt... sorry... take back the joke I made!

    Cheers, Sincerely,

    BTW, First post of 2012! Happy New Year to you all!!

  19. Hey James, great stuff,

    I am saying the same thing to Greg's PM. I had a lot of fun here... and knowing he is a straight kind hearted guy! We are just try to teasing each other here for good will's sake! : )

    Take care,

  20. [​IMG]

    Another Puzzle / Hint / Gift for you guys who interested in casting mechanics for the brand new year...
    Noted the fly at this moment is still in the water, the slack line inside the rod tip is slacking out (the wiggle). the loop trajectory and the rod tip position :thumb:



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