in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. Mark, looks like you are back in the conversation so thought this was relavent, it also shows up in the pic of Ed casting where you pointed out where his fly is.

    ET= Everyone Thinks........(they are an expert on the internet)
  2. Bruce,

    No, I am not. Sorry to disappoint you. I was here to finish Greg's requests. And put up some additional New Year's wishes for my friends.

    It is tempting indeed, particularly your top hand comment made me laugh so hard... I would think you know skagit casting.

    But apparently it is very limited. Sorry, no offense intended, there are more in skagit casting than what you think... by reading your posts though out the thread only give me some indications and impressions that it seems you already know it all... in your world of course.

    The thread has been taking over, so keep it going my friends...

    BTW, together to answer you and Brandy's question, the Ed's casting image captured from a video indeed is a puzzle gift, a puzzle with some instructions of how to read it, see post #300. You don't expect "buying" a puzzle and wish it has been already put together and finished! Don't you?!

    Best wishes!

  3. Seems we have to reply with quotes with you Mark ;-) so that the truth does not go missing. As I recall I have deleted nothing that I have posted.
    How open minded of you to not reply, do you not know the answer? As I had asked the question long before the aforementioned picture of Ed it would seem I do know the answer to the puzzle and much more, but that is another thread altogether about being open minded................
    My statement of your casting video still stands, and what you think of my knowledge well......lets just say, well, lets not say anything as the posts and the discussions speak for themeselves.
    Happy New Year Mark, phone home
  4. whatever works for you, Kerry. You won't be on mine.
  5. Yours wasn't, James. Chronologic proximity to Kerry's post, batching for efficiency, that's my excuse.
    Frankly, I usually avoid getting deeply involved in one of these threads and studiously avoid conflict, taunting or barbs, but decided to have a little fun... and it has been fun. It's fun watching Mark go into either denial ordiversion every time one of us ask for him to quit teasing and go for the money shot... because real casters aren't fluffers.
    Credibility on the internet is not a life goal for me, so the counsel, while I'm sure you're giving it in good faith, has not too much gravitas, hope you don't take that personally. Given with all due respect.

    The "ad hominem" argument has worn very thin by now.
    Back to the point...a somewhat misguided casting theory that will "change the world"....oops! I was just compensating for excessive overhang and poor shortbelly technique.
  6. Mark, I really think this post is a good example of why the way you have communicated has not been received graciously by everyone. As if we are a group of students that need to figure out what you have already been enlightened to, or that we are recipients of a gift you may or may not decide to lay upon us. I think most everyone here is open minded, and I certainly don't think you should't dive into casting mechanics and analyze to your heart's content,....but you didn't present any of this as an idea you've been kicking around that you wanted to bounce off a group of peers. You presented everything as hard and fast "findings"....that unfortunately, we must just be too dim to understand if we don't agree with you.
  7. Hey Brady,

    Yes, Well, I agree.. This particular post is not my style. as you can tell it is half teasing to Bruce, and to you. But why? the reason is very obvious... I don't need to mention all those ugly things again. Why I took my time to answer Greg's requests one by one carefully? Because I can sense his intentions is different than some people here. I might be wrong, of course. But in the current status of this thread. I have state clearly, I have no interest to involve in deeper discussion. (See my post #313 point four.)

    Secondly, You don't need to say any thing about my style of posting, it is very clear and state in the whole thread. As I stated earlier, this is a group discussion, if you will... post up what you think, there are more experienced skagit casters here than I, they might come up with some brilliant solutions than the one I have (and believe me, I post the image here not for teasing, but is sincerely to encourage people to look at the cast more closely).

    In my mind, group discussion has more merits than just one talking. I come here for sharing and for learning from each other. IF you simply want to get answers from me, you have miss out the whole point of posting on the internet. And I am not here for giving out what I got, I want to learn too. The posting from me has taken up way too much time and I hope you understand the idea is not a one man show... Looking back, James has some really good points, Trevor has good suggestions and Greg asked some brilliant questions that I never seen in the past. I have learn a lot from this thread indeed. (To me, this is the merits and attraction of group discussions). But the merit is also lie on the "processing" itself, I am sure many people will look at skagit casting (in Ed Ward's style) differently after this thread. At least Ed Ward himself has express this to me in the So please do not just focus on THE answers. There are plenty of wisdoms has been spoken in this thread from ALL THE PARTICIPANTS. Of course this is just my opinion, you can ask any questions you want, and I am sure all other experienced people will jump in, if not intimidated by the negative attitudes brought up by a very few...


  8. Yuhina,

    I have found this thread interesting, but not fascinating, mainly because I'm not accomplished enough in either Spey casting or physics to achieve understanding. I appreciate that you've tried to offer up some explanations, even though I don't understand them. However, I do understand English grammar and composition pretty well. Well enough to understand that you have made plenty of errors in communication. You posted above in #327, " . . . You don't need to say any thing about my style of posting, it is very clear and state . . ." Even that sentence is a clear example that you don't write in English for shit. I have long assumed from your posts in many threads that English is a second language for you, so I extend you the benefit of doubt when I don't quite understand your sometimes garbled posts. This has been an extra-ordinarily technical thread, and all the more difficult for me to understand, due at least in part to your limitations in communicating in English.

    As a result, after more than 300 posts in what may be the longest thread on Spey casting ever, I still don't know if a decent cast with a reasonably tight loop is possible with anything other than a straight line rod tip path. Yet it has been interesting.

  9. Steve,

    The advice well taken! I will double check the grammar more carefully next time!

  10. Mark, I have to agree with Salmo g, but I believe you have good intentions.

    I have found skagit casting to be fairly easy, probably because I began spey casting with a double taper then graduated to xlt and other long belly lines. I find casting skagit heads easy and comfortable if I remember to slow down, keep my elbows in close, make shorter motions and use my left hand. I don't necessarily find it important to form a tight loop, although I like a tight loop for scandi casting. I woudn't say it's simple to do, because I see many people struggling with their skagit casting. Most appear to be having problems forming a D loop or they might not have a properly matched line and tip for their rod.

    If you watch Ed he is relaxed and takes his time making the cast, you appear to hurry.
  11. Hi Verne,

    I agree with you. Regarding skagit casting is easier compare to XLT or Carron, IF the goal is to make a reasonable fishing cast. However, I have to say all good casts are all difficult to master. Particularly in different kind of fishing conditions. Otherwise, we will just see skagit masters everywhere.

    Regarding to perfect loop and tight loop comment, I think it is true that casting heavy sinktip and fly in tight loop is not a very good idea. Instead, a energized and wider loop is a better option. The main reason I used Ed's casting video in the first post is because his style is the most obvious Non-Straight Line Rod Tip Path, (a.k.a Round Path). His casting loop in the video (post #1) is reasonable tight, and energized. But the idea of this thread is about how rounded rod tip path also can generate tight loops. In addition to Ed's videos, I also provided other video demonstrations from other casters (Josh, Tellis) to help illustrating the idea behind round rod tip path and loop shape.
    Hope this explain...

  12. Mark, many years ago I learned to make an oval motion with the rod in casting with a shooting head which improved my casting at the time. In spey casting you make an oval motion as well as raising to form the D loop, but I believe the forward motion is straight. I guess I'm still confused about your circular cast is it similar to the oval arm/rod motion? I really can't visualize it too well from the videos.
  13. Hi Verne,

    The oval arm/rod motion you mentioned here is like snake roll cast? if this is the case, then I believe you are talking about the D loop formation. D loop formation indeed is much easier to use the rotational lift to generate the "high D"which is more upward shape "D", compare to the "falling" D. Formation of the D loop is the movement before the forward stroke. In this thread, we are mainly focusing on the forward stroke. However, I think some people also mentioned that SLP during/ or right after the D formation movement also is important. I don't have too much interests in the D formation, so I assume people are all focusing on the forward stroke. And this is the FFF's main instruction principle. SLP on the forward stroke to form a tight loop. I think if we can picture a snake roll cast, we can all agree a round motion during the D loop formation is reasonable and acceptable. The problem and argument lies on the forward stroke. Most people think SLP is necessary. I think it is optional, a round rod tip path also can achieve tight loop and the key is using overhang. Let me know...

  14. Mark, Thanks, I'll experiment next time I cast, I'll also experiment with using more overhang. I'm comfortable with my casting, but I'm always willing to try something new.
  15. Hey Verne,

    Thanks for bringing up some good points. Now, I realize which part I did not communicate well...
    I will have to work on my writings more...bawling:

    On last weekend, me and a group of people also experimented the different overhang lengths and how this factor influence the timing of the forward stroke. We found the timing is very sensitive and crucial when using longer overhang, although the longer overhang really showed up this "rotational acceleration effect" in the video well (Jerry's cast, post #293). One of the reasons you see I was a bit rush in the casting stroke is because I was trying to exaggerate this overhang rotational effect. This more compact and accelerating top hand movement also has its value during the windy condition, the extra oomps line speed will help the loop to cut through the wind better. If you can go back to see the Josh Linn's video (post #82), he also demonstrate this high speed top hand acceleration. Let me know...

  16. What Verne is referring to is a cast that was used by Lee Wulf and others called an oval cast and has nothing to do with a snake roll but is like a switch cast or spey cast without the anchor (which Mark is somthing that I eluded too concerning the videos that you posted, not saying you dont anchor but look at where you anchor, but you are done posting about this so.........)
    Overhang is a great thing, if you really want to blow your mind try a straight line Path cast with 4-6 feet of overhang, nothing new but then again lots of things happened pre 2009.
    Spoke to Josh by the way and he does not normally cast that way but was doing what he had to in order to make the rod in question work and for the record he does not hit the water with his rod on every cast:thumb:
  17. Bruce,

    Please take my apology about be littling you have limited knowledge about skagit casting. I know you have plenty of experience and You know I was coming back from your ET joke.

    Lee Wulff's oval cast is a fine example that how single handed caster can learn spey/switch cast quickly. I am totally agree with you! That's the way I bring up the "back casting" of spey to the new comers. The up lifting motion is also very similar to the snake roll... the reason I brought that up to Verne was just to making sure we are on the same page.

    Overhang with 4-6 feet is what we play normally... Jerry is also very specialized on the extra long overhang 6-10 feet (He was a tournament caster, so you know what I am talking about here), so there is no surprises to me that he can pick up the rotational acceleration in 5 minutes. He has been doing this without noticing it. All I need is to mention stop the rod tip low and delay the line releasing. He was doing the fast acceleration as natural as you won't believe. The video did not show up the results well, because of the bad weather. I will try to shoot more next time.

  18. Mark as a tournament caster he should know the limitations of a low delivery of the line, high trajectory is where its at in tournament casting. AsI mentioned before, I was wondering what you thought was optimal overhang, as it appears you have but 1-3 feet.
    BTW it was not Lee wulffs cast, and wulffs triangle taper lines were based on, stolen from.........well I can tell you it wasnt Ed:rofl:
    Another trick you can try Mark on your top hand slp cast is to twist your top hand wrist on the forward stroke and see what happens but dont tell anyone its a big secret and is so new it is fresh out the oven:clown: videos and drawings to follow
  19. I said I'd get some video up...and here it is! Windy day, had a hard time keeping the camera on a rock. See attached it's a 50 second bit salvaged from 5min of video. Fortunatley after about 3min of nothing the wind blew the camera back part way to catch some of my casting...then blew off.

    By the way I didn't get a video of my experimental line, but it did cast pretty well...once I got the deeply sunk head out of the water. Doubled pretty well but had to roll it up first to perform a single.

    I know the video is pretty poor, I'll try again on a sunny day.

  20. strong work on a windy day, did you try a spiral pickup? corkscrew the head out?
    had a hard time seeing the rod tip, but your hands say, "midbelly sinktip":thumb:

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