in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. yuhina Tropical member

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    Greg,

    Great points here... Thanks! we need to go back to your post!
    But I am in a party now... so... people ... go on!! : )

    Mark
  2. fisshman26 Member

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    Pan, no offence intended, but if you want to be a better caster its not going to happen by saying that casting does not matter. A little practice away from fishing and instruction can go a long ways to making oneself a better caster and fisher!
  3. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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  4. Panhandle Active Member

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    Bruce, I'd agree.
  5. yuhina Tropical member

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    Adam,

    I applauded of your open minded gesture as always! Good on you!



    Mark
  6. yuhina Tropical member

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    I can't agree with you more! James,
    well said! Mark
  7. Dan Page Active Member

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    Mark,
    When it comes to tight loops, I don't think you can do it without straight rod tip movement on the forward cast stroke. You mention Ed's cast has lots of circular movements, and that's true in setting up for the forward stroke. But, I guarantee you Ed's forward stroke has a perfectly straight rod tip movement or his casts would not be so efficient. Nonstraight rod tip movement is inefficient use of rod energy. Nonstaight rod tip movement on the forward cast will give a nonstraight line delivery.
    Am I wrong on this?
  8. fisshman26 Member

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    I would say you are correct Dan.
  9. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

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    Using the circular movement to lead to the linear movement? Eventually I'll figure that out.
  10. Klickrolf Active Member

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    Klickitat, Washington
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    Mel's right, loading the rod is number 1. Releasing that load is number 2. Using the rod's potential flex efficiently (to it's max) is what makes lines go out farther with tighter loops. Certainly technique and skill are pre-requisites...But fishing is much more than this. Line control after the cast is what catches fish, whether casting long or short.
  11. yuhina Tropical member

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    totally agree! Klickrolf,

    skill are just one of the many building blocks in fishing... can you dare say "luck" is not in your building blocks?
    Line control is another good one... I agree, even short cast need control, sinking, intermedia or floating line all require control.

    In single hand casting world, you learn how to cast as straight as possible, then later on you find out the straight line is just make you understand the casting mechanics, the actual fishing cast for dry fly fishing is actually a wiggle cast! then you realized there are more to learn after a perfect straight line! That's the skill will catch you a fish, not the straight line cast ironically...

    Mark
  12. yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Dan,

    First, I appreciate your explanation! I think we can discuss further if we all agree the circular movement during the pre-forward stroke stage. there is no doubt that the circular movement is in there before the forward stroke. Now... we can just concentrate on the forward stroke.
    I said forward stroke is rotating, and some people say the forward stroke is a straight line path. How could we find it out?

    There is one thing clear stand out if you watch the videos again, and there are some hints in there...

    1) Chris stop the rod tip just as high as his back stroke... but Ed stop the rod tip as much lower than his back stroke position. why those two positions are different?

    2) Chris rock his body back and forth to facilitate the forward stroke. Ed stand like a statue, only use his hands to pivot the rod.

    those are two major difference during the forward strokes. and it is crucial for us to depict the power application.

    Mark
  13. fisshman26 Member

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    Its not the the guys who hit it the hardest who wins the comps it is the guys who have the most control and best casting mechanics in the world.
  14. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    Chris is using an underhand SH cast, which used camera angle to create a narrow-looking loop with a floating line. (by no means traditional, have no idea why you called it that.)
    Ed uses a straightforward near-vertical DH stroke, that created a nicely shaped loop with a heavy tip and fly (not new, don't know why you called it that).

    I think this thread is going into the winter OCD zone, strarting from post #1, which compares apples/oranges, starts out with some poorly thought out insights from Mark, and I predict will devolve from there. The only thing being illuminated here is one man's lack of insight; it will be interesting to see what he gets schooled on this time:rofl:

    If I get Mark's statement right, you don't have to be a good caster to be a good caster...
    Were one to demonstrate real perspective and insight and say "you don't have to cast great distances to catch fish" well, I could go along with that for most waters, but still, I disagree with the premise of the thread. Shaping the loop is driven by conditions, there are many variables, and sharp, pointy v-loops are not always the goal.
  15. yuhina Tropical member

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    First of all, I will like to express my appreciation to some of the people here that are presenting some very good observations to facilitate our discussion. Thank you.

    Second, let me kindly remind you, if you are not interested in this comparison, just one click away. There are so many interesting threads in this forum to explore, No hard feeling.

    Third, I have some fine email exchanges with Bruce this morning, and that is really a wonderful experience to exchange ideas with a true friend... as you guys might see we can get very "excited" at times. but true friends are here for pointing out the real puzzle. So please don't get disturbed by our honesty. As you can see, Adam (Panhandle) is my true brother and I even tease him with Mel Keiger's video. I hope he still see me as his brother : )

    Forth, there is one interesting and fun exchange this morning with Bruce I would love to share with you guys...
    -----------------------------------

    Question for everyone here.... please read it slowly

    The finest distance casters in the world are the finest casters.
    The finest casters in the worlds are the finest distance casters.

    tell me what you agree, both or just one. why?

    Cheers,
    Mark
  16. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    :beathead:Let me kindly remind you, it's not your thread, it's OUR thread. You can't stand to have your conclusions challenged, Mark. Problem with that? The answer is one click away, my brother. Try this silliness on Speypages and see if it lasts 13 pages...LOL

    The last thread, which you bailed on, addressed the same point you just brought up. Apparently you didn't like the answer.
    Distance casting is a high expression of proper use of casting physics and form. Distance is only one of the many benefits of good form.
    Excellent form is useful in the pursuit of accuracy, artful presentation, fishing under tough or restricted conditions, and reaching far lies, and is less demanding physically when fishing at normal distances. Every superb caster I've ever met, both SH and DH, had some good competency in achieving distance because it's a natural result of good form.

    Still waiting, by the way, for you to post up a video ...of yourself...that illustrates your knowledge in this area.

    edit: the answer to your question in #32 is, "straight tip path". Comparing power application in a SH underhander with a floater against a DH skagitcaster with heavy tips is apples/oranges. Back to straight tip path>>>straight line path>>>nicely shaped loop.

    In post #3 stated goal of the thread was to compare straight tip path vs curved in the creation of a nice loop. Everybody looked at the videos posted and arived at the conclusion that Ed made nice loops with straight tip path, too, and several knowledgeable anglers have posted that straight tip path is an essential in shaping the loop. To echo the sentiments expressed throughout this thread, what's your point? Straight tip path is not essential to shape the loop? I haven't heard one person agree with that yet.
    Is this going to drag on for 13 pages, or are we done yet?
  17. Dan Page Active Member

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    Mark,
    I want to be sure we answered the first question before we move to the next. Is the straightline rod tip movement on the forward cast essential to creating tight loops?
    Next, what do you defoine as a fine caster?
    Dan
  18. yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Dan,

    my answer for the first question is : No, straight line rod tip path is not essential to create the tight loop. there are several different ways to do so...

    Mark
  19. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    :rofl:hoo hoo. this I think will end badly:rofl:
  20. Dan Page Active Member

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    Mark,
    It seems to me you are trying to rewrite the laws of physics.
    I don't think you'll get much more response on this thread.
    Dan