in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    OH
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    Could you describe or show the different ways? And yes, I've looked at Ed's video in detail, yes I've the watched his entire video numerous times in years past. If I recall he's very persistent about a straight tip path. Didn't the circular motion he refers to reference his hands within the box?
  2. James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, I'm truely intrigued, please explain the other ways. No deep explanation needed at this time, just the basic priciple of the non linear forward cast.

    As a fellow caster, I fail to see how defending the linear rod path "Law" (Law in quotes because that's how I see it) furthers the discussion, it's proven and stands on it's own, so please allow Mark a little latitude to prove or disprove to himself the validity of another way.

    Mark the stage is your's...don't choke!:thumb:
  3. yuhina Tropical member

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    Brady, (and Dan)

    Good point on recalling "the center box" in Ed's casting.. This is the key. Let's keep in mind we are still talking about Ed Ward's casting style. The following talk might be feel a bit difficult to imagine if people did not watch his DVD throughly... but I will try to explain the mechanics.

    1) center of box. if you can remember what Ed said about the center box as the place he pivot the rod. You can see his two hands are very confined in those small area. The pivot point in the rod actually move very very little. It is almost a "nail drill through it" fix point motion all the way thought. This point is important for the angular momentum to work. "Because as soon as you break out side of the box, you unload the rod." This is very true for the conservative law to angular momentum to work.

    2) if you watch the DVD, he also mention he use continuous move and continuous load method if propel the system (CM/CL). "This is power stroke is fairly long". in the video below (allow me to attached it again) please pay attention to his hand movement, (1) fix point; (2) fairly long stroke all the way though.



    Then I will go on to point out why this is circular motion without straight line rod tip path....
    Mark
  4. Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    As I said, I've seen the video numerous times. No need to repost same clip again. Please, go on.....
  5. golfman65 Guest

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    You know I used to think that casting was the most important part of fishing...I worked my ass off, got tight loops and decent distance..(never in the bruce or tim range) would sit on the side of the river and judge others by how they cast...

    Then got schooled two years in a row by one of the ugliest casters around..S C H O O L E D!!! Casting doesn't catch fish...casting is like the long drive contest in golf..but if you don't have short game you suck...Casting is a great sport for posers who don't catch fish...Think about that..What do you do if you aren't catching anything? Working on your casting instead of working on your water reading and fishing skills..

    I'm sorry but I don't buy the kool aid anymore...Bruce, Poppy, Pan live and/or fish big water like the T. (clearwater) on that flow it sure helps to have tight loops and distance to fight wind and other anglers pushing out fish...Fishing this year on big water I focused on line control and swing, not distance and got a hog and more action then standing there gunning out 120+ foot casts...

    The more I focused on casting the less I thought about fishing...When you step into a line up and you got a dick between your legs, who doesn't want to be one of the guys bombing out tight loops..funny thing is though...If you ever fished gear and did well with it....where did you toss you float? Yup...ain't cool sometimes to fish with part of your head still in your rod...but IMHO that's the difference between catching and casting...
  6. attack Member

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    Forks, WA
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    Mark, if you are going to be an expert on this you need to come up with your own stuff not just lean on ed ward. but since you are still trying to argue on the lack of need for a straight rod tip path...how do you explain ed's 45 thrust or whatchamacallit... the sweep in every cast he does ends in a linear rod tip movement opposite the target and a straight tip path to the target on the forward stroke. why is it everytime someone brings this up you go in a different confusing direction? what does stroke length have to do with the straight rod tip path...nothing...regardless of stroke length it must be straight.
  7. Greg Holt Active Member

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    camano island, wa.
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    Dan,
    Wait for me, I'm going too. I read your direct question in #27 post, and the "response" in post #38 that states that a curved action can create a linear reaction. Either your question wasn't clear enough (hardly the case) or the reponse was evasive, mis-understood, or misinformed.

    Multiple posters, self included, have pointed out to the originator of the thread that these two distinct casting "styles" create SERVICEABLE loops, and that "perfect" loops are situation-specific.

    I think I'll go cast over some empty water now--at least I'll come away with my mind intact...
  8. speyghillie speyghillie

    Posts: 180
    River Spey Scotland
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    Hi Guys,
    Not having much time to spend on this debate, i wanted to tell a story about a great fly caster, i still regared him a great flycasting Instructor.
    I was telling him about constant tension casting at a speycasting show i had organized in BC, a casting style invented more than 100 years ago, anway i showed him how the cast was done and the idea behind it and we chatted away for most of the afternoon.
    While he is very well known as a single handed casting Instructor, he had never Speycast.
    A couple of months later i was entering a fly shop in BC and saw his flyer, Constant tension speycasting with """" """"""""".

    The reason i mention this is, while i think of Ed as a great Speycaster and Steelhead fisherman, i cannot agree that his style of casting is anything like "continuous load method"
    If you watch the clip at around 29 sec, and watch the rod tip and line,...... also at a couple points the weight of the line goes off the rod so again it can't be described as continuous load method.
    I do not mean to take anything away from a great Steelhead fisherman and Speycaster.
    Thanks Gordon.
    DTX Pro Staff.
  9. yuhina Tropical member

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    Gentlemen,

    It seems we have a lot of interests regard to "perfect loop" and casting mechanics...that's wonderful... but today I don't have too much time to spent on the internet... so ... bear on me on the delay response. sorry!

    Also, please keep in mind, we are a group of people who interested in discussing casting... I tend to think we are face to face...
    And I am not very comfortable to aggressive attitudes and conversations... so please... keep it gentle and smooth... and we will get there...

    You are not a judge and I am not a criminal ! May we all deserve some politeness??

    I promise I will get back to you, each point!
    Thank you! my friends! Mark
  10. golfman65 Guest

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    Amen to that Gordon..

    I wrote my piece after sucking down a coffee before going for a run...On the run I kept thinking how I missed pointing out the obvious...We on the PNW can if we choose, to throw big heavy uglies on big heavy tips connected to big heavy heads...WTF do you want a tight loop for? Ed has no use for a tight loop...
    Guys like yourself fishing for atlantic's and guys living on big clear shallow rivers fishing for summer runs can use and appreciate a longer line, mono, poly or light tips and a fly that looks like a fly and not a hunk of iron with animal parts hanging off it...Tight loops cut through wind and reach fish that can be out further on shallower clear rivers..

    I was told that just about everyone can learn to cast to say 120'...getting beyond that to distances in and above 150 requires skill and a real understanding of the cast, it's lines, it's loads, release etc. It can come down to a touch more angle in your elbow...Things we mortal casters have no clue of...

    Pissing in the wind about how Ed is not doing something to huck out a chunk of lead 60' compared to a totally different style of casting is kind of ridiculus....My point being for guys who fish for winter runs on the coast is...Keep doing it...Shit it took me 5 years to realize how messed up that is...and I'm a fast learner..
  11. James Waggoner Active Member

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    wa
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    Analysis of Point 1) - After careful study of the short clip it appears they both enter and exit about the same height, relitively speaking. Notice Ed's rod positon at line release, the actual stop occurs prior to this, the rest of his stroke is just follow through.

    Analysis of Point 2) - Ed stands like a statue because with a short head, a slightly longer circular arc then Chris, any extra movement would mean a blown anchor. Given a longer head length I believe Ed would have included the neccesary extra movements to accomondate the extra head length, such as body rock, more lower hand to power the back cast and hire lift.

    As far as power application, though mechanically different, they are principally the same, linear with stops appropriate for the stroke.
  12. yuhina Tropical member

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    just a quick note here... the mechanics lie in those two videos in sport physics... I will explain it later... how it works.

    if you are interested, you can tell me which one is straight line power application and which one is NOT. but both has the same straight line trajectory.



  13. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

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    Kitsap Peninsula
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    Mark, wondering if the javelin v hammer is an apples to oranges comparison (linear vs roatational forces). I think that what Ed and Chris do with the line BEFORE the actual cast is less relavant to the physics of the cast and more to the dynamic variables in which they are standing. I am quite a novice and simpleton in this regard. I believe that once Chris and Ed initiate their cast, their rod tip travels back and forward in a very linear manner. All the motion before that short collection of time that actually is the line departing behind them and heading downrange in front of them is setup for the cast. Setup can be done a myrid of different ways that will allow a good cast to form and happen. Just my thoughts, but I'm getting interested reading all the thoughts of others.
  14. yuhina Tropical member

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    Ed,

    we are not talking about set up, we are focusing on power stroke to stop the rod tip. just concentrate on the final half second right before the power release. They are very different indeed in the Javelin and Hammer throw, It is apple and orange. just like the original post point out, they are two different things regarding to power stroke and energy release. Mark
  15. yuhina Tropical member

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    James,

    I have two clips to show here...but I really need to go... no time for explaining...briefly, I can tell you the power application and rod tip path are different... Mark



  16. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Posts: 1,826
    Roy, WA
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    I'm trying to imagine tying a hammer or javelin to a sinktip.
    maybe there's a special knot?

    The absence of a rod from both sports seems to limit their usefulness in this discussion.
    Mark, please explain the relevance of the hammer throw and javelin to straight rod tip path vs. curved path.

    edit: I am grateful to see video of you standing in water switch casting, Mark.
    those were some pretty straight tip paths in both casts, do you have any that show the results of a curved tip path?

    additional comment: it appears the DC likes you better than the Death Star does, DC is much more forgiving of that top hand.
  17. James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, these are more, excellent, examples of linear motion. Trajectory aside, the load and release occur on the same plane.

    Now you may argue, that the hammer thow is circular, but this circular motion does not translate in spey casting, but the loading and unloading on plane does. So why doesn't this translate? simply because of where the load lies. With the hammer thow it's at the end of the cable in the head of the hammer, with a fly rod the load or energy is in the rod and the line, since the load is not concentrated at one point, at the end of the arch it does't translate. The hammer throw works because the load spins off the arch with a clean release on a tangent.
  18. James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, thanks for the videos. You are correct, the entry and exit do happen on different planes, thus the wide loops. I'd say aim a little higher to start.

    As stated before wide loops do have there place with heavy tips and or large flies, but this thread is about tight loops...or is it about the perfect loop? I guess conditions as well as opinion can determine what's perfect...and that' a moving target.
  19. speyghillie speyghillie

    Posts: 180
    River Spey Scotland
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    Hi all,
    I just wanted to add while i do fish the river Spey(my local river), for Atlantic's, Browns and Sea-Trout, i have been lucky enough to have travelled to fish in Canada 37 times in the last 10 years, FISHING FOR EVERYTHING, and learning from everyone, i only add this incase anyone thought i only fished this side of the pond.

    A tight loop is good for some reasons, but can also be the last thing you want, one example being here i can fish a team of very small flies on a long long leader, the last thing i want is a tight loop.
    Cheers Gordon.
    DTX Pro Staff.
  20. golfman65 Guest

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    Mark....Please take no offense to this...but cast more and think less...Your loops are pretty standard my friend...your dropping your tip and opening them more then you need...You want tight? Bang that rod butt hard against your stomach and make a high stop...also you can use your top hand, extend it up and then back down and a high stop....i.e. Mortenson..
    .
    You can't take anything from Ed's video...He does a cast where he lifts and brings the line up to his other shoulder, rod out at a 45* angle..turns and casts...works like a hot damn...out to around 80' or so...you don't need to deep load the rod for that kind of distance..or you can overload it with a heavy skagit...rod path isn't critical either..again, I believe Ed fishes with 11 and 12' rods...His Mow tips and doesn't believe in fishing out past 60 or 80' that why he uses shorter rods etc. FYI

    I knew that Gordon have read your posts on the pages and seen your out in b.c. every year if I'm not mistaken...Was only using that as an anology...All things being equal, the only time I worry about my loops is when they are getting to close to my head...Lol...distance can be acheived with many different looking loops..