in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Greg,

    cool. Sorry I just got back to re-read your post #90 and I agree I forgot some points to get back to you.

    First of all... I apologize for my poor writings...

    Well, my English is still improving, (and sorry for you guys have to read my poor writings… I tried hard to improve it) and make the communication more efficient.
    so please bear on me... will try to double check it before I sent the writings out.
    I will be working on those points and get back to you ASAP. Thanks! Mark
     
  2. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Very good, Mark. No criticism of your English intended. I frequently go back and re-read my own posts, cleaning up spelling, syntax, grammer, etc.
     
  3. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Greg,

    First, I just realized It sounded very bad to use the students example 30%-60%-30% after I re-read it. There is absolutely no intention to treat the group of casters here as students!! Or disrespect to the members here in any sort! I found it is terrible after realizing it could translate to bad attitude by reading your response about the class and students. My students example was used to emphasis that the difficulty of the linear momentum and angular momentum in the classroom set up. I apologized for that sincerely! As I said before in this thread, we are all equal here in the spirit of discussing casting mechanics, no lower, no higher. (and I do try very hard to respect everyone's opinion). Hopefully my posting behavior in those two long threads still showed my respects to this community ... My bad!! terrible mistake… will improve next time! Mark
     
  4. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Greg,

    1) I agree, the tension is very important to maintain the loop shape, a minimum tension often require for keep the loop in the right track, as we know, too slippery shooting line will just make the loop land as a pile. I think in most of the cases, as you mentioned, a gentle pull back after the rod being unload will do the trick to prevent the loop deteriorated. This action can be seen in Chris’s video since he frequently pull back the loop when doing the side arm cast. See video one.

    2) However, what I am suggesting here is a stronger downward force that adding to the still bend rod. This action is part of the forward stoke (pass the point A in Panel 2) continue adding force till the end of the power stop (I will explain why I use point A. it seems we have some misunderstanding here, will explain in the following response). You can see this motion in Ed’s video (0:16 - almost) and Josh’s video (0:36 sec). The rod was dipped into the surface, then unload after that. The caster try also to pull the rod tip back to the air. I explain this “backward follow through” as an act to remain tension. See video (below) (0:53 sec) (tellis) . At (1:03) see also how the loop close up to a tighter loop form after flight in the mid-air.



    I am not very sure about your illustration here, but I agree if using heavy sinktip and heavy fly, the motion will be pulling down more to prevent collapsing. Is this also a sign of adding more force /energy to the downward pressing?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    At the first part we have understand some disagreement points (hopefully) which is the motion of continuously driving the rod downward after the A point. If this is following through? Or this is adding force to the fly line.

    Point A in the panel 2 diagram:
    First, I use point A as a reference point is because this is the point that rod tip start to deviate from the straight path. In my view, the whole discussion is the rod tip path during forward stroke (load-unload) has to be remain a straight path. See the #1 (correct me if there are something misunderstood here)


    ---------------------------------------------------
    My statement and explanation about this motion is adding force to the flyline, below is my explanation.

    After the A point, the rod tip continue to drive downward with fast acceleration. The rod is putting tension on the overhang that cuased the overhang to rotate and pulling the Skagit head to the downward motion. This force can be calculated as the centrifugal force centered on the pivot point located at the front portion of the rod (depends on the rod action, on soft rod, the pivot would be located on the lower part of the rod, on the fast rod, the pivot point would be located more close to the rod tip ), this rotation force caused the rolling motion of the Skagit head .

    ----------------------------------------------------
    Ed’s casting forward stroke:
    I totally agree, Ed’s casting stroke is very long and the pivot point (between both hands) is very confined in a limited area (center of the box). If we watch the video close enough, the forward stroke can be defined from the far end (starting 45 degree thrust) vertical rotation up and forward the rod tip down to near the surface. All those long movement motion was centered on the single pivot point. (releasing the casting energy very late). If we can picture the motion here, then I will like to point out the above described motion is the definition of rotation. (1)long movement and (2) centered on one pivot point. please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation Under the definition of rotation there is no liner path on any point of the rod. Particularly the long movement will eliminate the possibility of the deflected rod tip path in making the possible tip straight path. I know this is strange, but we have to pay more attention to the caster’s hand and see if the pivot point move/shift or not.

    The only video I can think of at this moment that use fix pivot point, and short stroke to achieve the straight rod tip path (because to the deflected rod tip in making a short straight line). is the Goran’s style (see video below). Noted how short his stroke is. This is the only way to achieve straight line path on a fix pivot point. Other than this, if a caster want to extend the stroke (and also maintain the straight rod tip path), the pivot point has to be moved / shifted, and it is called translation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_(geometry)



    Hope this description doesn't sound too jargon. (to be continued) Mark
     
  5. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Greg,

    Tangent forces come from the angle @
    There is a bit miscommunication here. I think the discussion is focused on the straight rod tip path. So I use the A point as my breaking point which is deviate from the straight line after the A position toward B position. In D position the rod tip actually is already starting to pull the Skagit head off the straight line path.
    For fast action rod, after A –C the rod tip is curving. For softer action rod, it would be A –E (did not illustrate in the panels) all the way down.

    Inefficient is possible, I agree, here we can see the forward stroke actually is different from Ed to Josh. You can see Josh has more force added to the final downward stroke from A-D, and the rod tip was dipped into the water surface. and Ed is more continuously even powered through to the D position (close to the water surface).

    [​IMG]

    30% is calculated from the angle change, roughly. If we agree the Ed’s style is center on a fixed pivot point. Then we can dissect the angle changes in different portions. Regular angle change for the rod tip from the starting point of forward stroke, then stop right at the edge A (straight rod path method). The angle change is about 45+45 = 90 degree see panel 1). If you continue to curve the rod tip down to the C position or D. that would be adding another 30-40 degree more angle change, this is the additional 30% power of the long stoke. (of course this is based on the assumption that curving rod tip is still adding power, but not following through) (the point we disagree with at this moment)
    -------------------------------------

    I admit this part is messy. Sorry, I will refine it in more detail later. The new concept I just brought up is about the loop unroll dynamic after it flight in the mid-air . It DOES open up a bit in the initial downward stroke. But sooner when the loop flight out from the rod tip the loop detach from the stroke tension (point C). the loop unroll motion start to work with line weight distribution. And it shape the loop to a tighter loop see Tellis video at ( 0:53 sec, below). Again, I admit this areal dynamic after the point C is what I did not mention in the earlier post. (to be continued) Mark
    (Tellis video at ( 0:53 sec))


    Thanks!Greg, I will make a better presentation for sure!
     
  6. speyghillie

    speyghillie speyghillie

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    Hi Yuhina,
    Can i say from the Start that i think Goran is a wonderful caster and a true gentleman and a great fisherman, but you really need to read the history of Speycasting to see that nothing is new, not even this debate.
    Underhand casting style may apply its self well to short shooting head line casting, but thats it.
    Dare i say it can lead to some really bad habits in longer line casting........ well there i said it.

    "the Goran’s style (see video below). Noted how short his stroke is. This is the only way to achieve straight line path on a fix pivot point."
    I think this point is wrong.

    Here is a question,....... when do you think the underhand style of casting was first debated for all its pro's and con's, rod tip travel, constant tension casting ?........ ?

    Gordon
    DTX Pro Taff.
     
  7. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    I think this may be the first time I've ever disagreed with Gordon- and I say MAY most humbly.
    I believe, in my foggy memory, that there is a Scottish underhanding style using longish shooting heads. Indeed, I've heard it said the Scots invented underhanding and the Scandinavians appropriated it and refined it for their unique environment. Maybe if I had more energy I'd email Bob Gillespie or Alistair and verify that, but not to bother them with this piddly stuff right?
    Your question remains, for answer by Yuhina.

    edit: insofar as the bad casting habits translating to longer line casting...well, we've waited for two threads now for someone to disprove that one. Thirteen pages on the first, eight pages on the second, and my foot is still tapping.
     
  8. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, thanks for the diagram! It's a much better place to start then a random you tube clip.

    At first glance looks plausible...but with a better look the line deviation you suggest between tip and Head doesn't seem realistic. And at what point are you releasing? The all important downward pressure is defeated the momement you release and start to shoot line...kind of like the hammer thrower, after the release he's done applying power. Unless you say the release happens at "C" OR "D"... which I'm pretty convinced would only rob energy stored in the head as the line is being pulled of it's tragectory. Kind of like fire your "D" Loop back to 4 O'clock and punching your cast out at 12 O'clock ...whiff.

    If you think about a trebushette (or how ever it's spelled) and how the sling works, which is how it seems your trying to apply over hang and rotation, the release happens when the sling with it's load passes and is in line with the arm. Very much like your diagram #2 illustrates at un-named point after "c". It works because the load is in perfect alighnment with the sling, in fact it's a point load charged with energy at the very end of the sling. Your diagram, shows a load, along an energy eating arc, trailing the sling.

    Now if you had a really short head...say a 2oz lead ball at the end of your overhang, I'd say Your in business!
     
  9. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    Regarding Mark's diagram, frankly, it doesn't resemble reality.
    However, I have monstrously overloaded a few soft actioned rods in my time, and the diagram looks like an exaggerated version of that.

    I was at the river today, and two things happened-sadly, neither were fish.
    First, I used my normal fullsink and floating shooting heads, I stood knee deep and progressively increased the overhang till I couldn't get a decent cast out. I stopped at 8 ft. of overhang. For the outfit I was using, everything beyond 3 ft of overhang was a waste of energy, and loop tightening only occurred within a narrow and modest range of overhang. This tells me the whole premise of the hammerthrow theory is flawed, actually the problem is in line design (lack of back taper). Mark's repeated mention of GPS lines sort of speaks to that anyway, but I'd throw it out there as a perspective to consider. Every rod needs its own amount of backtaper for a given line to balance (impossible for manufacturers) so we as experienced casters do the next best thing. No hammer throwing, no javelins. Reminder, with shorthead lines you can get away with murder, once you step up to longer lines many of these little discussions, 8 pages now, become moot.
    Second, I bumped into a couple of young Army combat vets, both involved in PHW, one casting a brand new DH rod a friend had built him. I admire these guys, they are powerful and enthusiastic. The windings on the guides imitated the campaign ribbon for Middle East combat theater. Cool idea. I was leaving, and I heard that horrible ripping sound-you know the one- so I went back to see if I could help him with his casting. We chatted and I got to cast his rod and feel it. Then I gave him a few pointers. Then I broke out my rod and fired a few across the river. You should have seen his smile. Then I explained how to get a tightened loop and showed him a laser. Then I told him about top hand, bottom hand, how to line up the D-loop, how to feel the love. How to set the anchor. Lots of things real fast. I would cast my rod, he would imitate with his. Fifteen minutes later he's busting some string and feeling better, big smile, getting it. Didn't lord it over him, didn't talk fancy concepts, nothing. Just a guy helping a guy.
    I do not get that vibe from this thread. I don't feel a spirit of helpfulness and cameraderie from Yuhina. Which is what has pissed me off so much.

    edit: I left something out. The fullsink head was a Powertaper, chopped to 37'/ 650 gr/7 ft leader for my 10/11 Schtinker. The floater was a 47' FF45, also 650 gr, 15' leader, a line has a nice back taper. The length/mass overhang correlation speaks for itself. No hammerthrows, BTW. Straight tip path, reference first page of this thread...
    The Powertaper required two feet more overhang to obtain similar sensual, authoritative, vapor-like results, but required less top hand. also a correlation for those who know what they're doing...
     
  10. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Mark,
    Your posting shows a lot of effort, much thought, and a better understanding of physics than I sport. While I try to process it, I do have some questions about it and related things, in no particular order:

    1) In your hand drawing, panel 2, I take it the piviot point you highlighted is below the top hand. If so, at what point a, b, c, etc. do you visualize the stop, and at what point a, b, c, etc. do you visualize the release? They could be the same point, I imagine. Maybe there is no hard stop? In pumking tossing, tomohawks, and atl atl's there is no hard stop either (but does there really need to be one?), and they fly like crazy, though again, the projectile is completely unlike a fly line.
    2) If the line speed at point a) on your drawing is fast enough, could it prevent downward deflection by a descending rod tip? I still don't see the descending tip adding significant force to a long thin easily deflected projectile, especially at the angles you have drawn unless its REALLY moving, creating tremendous forward inertia that overcomes the downward force of a descending rod tip. The line would have to exhibit near gyroscopic inertia to avoid deflection?
    3) When I watch Josh's video carefully, at :036 where you suggest his rod is still adding load when it hits the water, can you not see that the line has been long gone since before the rod even approached 10 o'clock above the water? I'm trying to see a clip where the rod tip is pulled downward with the hangdown directly above it while the line proceeds straight ahead, but all I've seen so far have the loop well ahead of the rod tip by the time it reaches the positions you mention, and beyond the zone of influence of the rod tip. Perhaps if the head were only 2 feet in length?
    4) In Goran's video, can you not see that he moves his pivot rearward in the backstroke, and forward in the forward stroke? Al Buhr refers to this type of action as a "dynamic pivot", though I have no idea how much power it adds to a cast.
    5) In Tellis' video, do you not see him release at 10 o'clock above the water, even though his force carries the rod much lower? Do not golfers and baseball players accelerate through the hitting zone, even though the driven object of flight is no longer under the infuence of the device? Could they "stop", even if they wanted to? Tellis uses a very butt heavy head, super stiff rod, but perhaps the line velocity overcomes any downward rod tip force? If it didn't, wouldn't it deflect the line lower at some point?
    6) Do you recall my statement that the downward bulge in the last part of the backstroke forming the D loop is caused by the upward circling rotation into the firing position? Could that not be the mirror image of the effects your downward flexing rod? (downward flexing rod momentarily causing the line to rise).
    Isn't that the action/reaction principle of physics?
    7) When you watch a pitching machine, or one that throws tennis balls, is the projectile released differently than a fly line from the angler's grasp?

    You may have to learn Swedish and ask Tellis to explain his casting stroke. It might be worth it! But you're spreading your focus here rather broadly, by mixing analysis of scandi casts with stiff, fast rods in with the analysis of skagit casts with softer rods. I don't believe the mechanics are interchangeable, as I originally stated in my first post, though some elements may withstand comparison.

    Granted, the traditional casting tutorials employ a hard stop with the rod near vertical. Perhaps the newer "mass in the ass" lines and super fast rods allow a significantly later release? I don't know, and don't know who does. Ask Ed Ward where he percieves his stop/release, and at what point in the forward stroke he feels he is no longer adding energy to the cast?

    And finally,

    8) If I replace my shooting head with a tennis ball (assuming some overhang), I can release it into an infinite number of flight paths, including straight up, straight ahead, and straight down, but I can't do that with the shooting head. Why not? The answer may be very important to your analysis, as it has to do with the shape, density, and overall compactness of the flying object.

    Have fun with this, but know that I cannot add much beyond what has been offered. And again, props for effort.

    Greg
     
  11. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Greg, looks like we're on the same page...your is better explained. Between a plumber and a framer we might get throught to the proffessor!

    Just messing with you Mark, I'm still all ears.
     
  12. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    I think that the more interesting conversation is going on on skagitmaster under the ccchanges thread where they are sub discussing this thread
     
  13. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    I'm tired of kicking Mark's ass over heinous flaws in his logic, anyone else? Hands up, let's vote.
    God, it's like drowning kittens. He seems like such a nice man, too.

    BTW, Greg Holt, that post had some serious weight.

    regretfully, Bruce, I don't submit to...er, subscribe to, skagitmaster forum. pardon my freudian slip bro.
     
  14. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Unfortunately as of right now, Marks the only game in town. Kudo's to Mark for starting such thought provoking threads. I think we all enjoy threads, like these....good or bad...because it gets down to our passion, our knowledge, our opinion and experiences. There's no marketing of lines, rods or reels. In a thread like this everyone has a say...you don't have to have bamboo or a Sage to post. A Burkhiemer to have valid point...in a thread like this Joe Plueger and Nigel Orvis are on a level field.

    Nice challenge Bob, but take a little hair off it next time.
     
  15. Sean Beauchamp

    Sean Beauchamp Hot and Heavy at yer 6

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  16. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    yeah, that's my way Sean. Sorry guys. I'll have to go back to punkin' chunkin'. Correctly, with good conscience, straight spine and clear conscience, but still.
     
  17. Sean Beauchamp

    Sean Beauchamp Hot and Heavy at yer 6

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    Spey spasm relax man. Yuhina has put a lot of thought into this (some his own original thought). Which so far I can't say for you. Go do whatever it is you do. Call meiser. Pour a glass of wine. Change the tampon. Whatver is necessary to cool the negativity a bit. Let yuhina explore his thoughts outloud if he is wrong let him be wrong. At least he dead ended on his own tangent and not nose in the ass of every spey god that ever was. Relax bud. It's the fucking internet and at the end of the day this shit means nothing.

    If you can't handle it try Google Image : puppies
     
  18. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    "Also Mark,
    To add comment about your WFF Casting Loops thread... I believe that the rod TIP does need to travel on a straight horizontal path forward on the Forward Cast to create tight loops. However, this action may not necessarily be reflected by a straight horizontal forward travel path by the casting hands. It's a very complicated subject, but has much to do with the particular "altitude" that the rod enters into the forward casting stroke at, plus where in the forward stroke one loads and unloads the rod and how THAT subsequent bending or unbending of the rod affects the "altitude" of the rod tip."

    oh, man, I submitted. I feel so cheap now.


    ARE WE DONE YET?
     
  19. Sean Beauchamp

    Sean Beauchamp Hot and Heavy at yer 6

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    Smiley face winky icon with an LOL for good measure
     
  20. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    wait, the words of a super guide, caster and a very wise fisherman:
    "One thing to bear in mind is that in the casting of weighted junk, tight loops usually result in excessive fly-to-line collisions. Therefore, purposely using a more open loop, but with high line speed, is more prudent to actual fishing situations than achieving laser-tight loops.
    It is intentional on my part that in casting clinics and demoes that I do in fact forego "yarn casting" and instead cast with an actual fishing rig, to in my opinion, display the "most honest", actual angling capabilities of a system. Whether the audience "catches" that factor or not has always seemed to be a "gamble" here in the States."

    La Bamba, sensei, keep it comin'. Seriously good stuff, but seems to contradict this thread.
    As I said on page one, tight loops are not necessarily the goal in casting for fishing. This can be hard at times to embrace, because-let's admit it- we all love a tight loop, but fishing is different from just casting. As I said on page one, I think? the premise of the thread is flawed.
     

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