indicators in fly only water?

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by I love babies, Jul 16, 2014.

  1. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    You're kidding about the skill level, right? Swinging without thought is certainly easy, but more than likely those folks aren't having a ton of success. Actual swinging takes a *lot* of skill and isn't something that you can just go into autopilot on. Saying that is just like saying that just throwing out an indicator and floating it down river is all it takes.

    But in terms of ease of catching fish, is nymphing easier? Hell yeah. For me it's along the lines of 4 to one. In terms of fun, depends on what you're looking for.
     
  2. Irafly

    Irafly Active Member

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    Just messing with Salmo James, just messing with Salmo. As Stilly pointed out with every technique there is mastery and yes swinging takes mastery as does high sticking, indicatoring, dry fly drifts, etc... but flat out equating indicator fishing with the lowest of skill levels to catch fish is naive at best.
     
  3. Irafly

    Irafly Active Member

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    So swingers who pick on indicator fisherman, now I get it. Thanks for the clarification. Although you said nymphers with this syndrome... can't say that I've met one.
     
  4. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    Nymphing unto itself is not the lowest form of fishing. But the stuff Steve is targeting is the guys who nymph for a boat where the guide makes all the decisions and makes the drifts long and effective, then turn around and state how awesome they are.

    Frankly I've tried Spanish long leader tight line shit, and it pretty much kicked my ass.
     
  5. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    You need to get out more Ira. There are lots of folks like that.... :)
     
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  6. Irafly

    Irafly Active Member

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    Only problem is we are talking about the North Fork of the Stilly here, where that simply does not happen.
     
  7. stilly stalker

    stilly stalker Tuna sniffer

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    I'm a big fan of high stick nymphing. I'm also a big fan of the drag free dead drift.

    Anyone who claims superiority with a single technique is ignorant.
    Think about all the different water out there. No one technique is going to be best for it all. Don't let anyone convince you that one technique is the answer. Challenge yourself as a fisherman! Try to do things as many ways as you can. Master mending and line control! Become a better all around angler.
     
  8. Irafly

    Irafly Active Member

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    I agree, I do need to fish more and meet more people, if I have this syndrome, maybe I can convince my Doctor to prescribe more fishing time. I'm liking this Napoleon character more and more now! "But honey, it says right here on this note that I have to fish more, you don't want this thing getting any worse do you?"
     
  9. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Ira,

    Surely we have been through this before. Respect is among the last things I strive for in indicator threads, but I'd hate to learn that you've lost respect for me on all topics and all things.

    Ignorance abounds to a degree among all the fraternities, swing, indicator, and others. You won't find me denying that nymph fishing requires skill, just as most methods require skill to do well. It might be true that in order to experience the highest possible success in indicator fishing requires more skill than is required to enjoy the highest possible success while swing fishing; I honestly don't know. However it doesn't require extremely high skill in order to experience a good degree of success with indicator fishing, and I think that is why it attracts some anglers who haven't experienced much success with the traditional swing method.

    As for swingers demonizing indicator fishermen, I think they do it because they see the indicator guys taking the easy way out, meaning they will hook more fish per unit of time spent fishing than if they stuck with the swing. I, on the other hand, only demonize indicator fishermen on internet indicator threads because I find it hilariously funny that such a large mountain can be made of such a small mole hill.

    I do agree with those who think it is more of an accomplishment to hook a steelhead on a swung fly than by nymphing for the same reason it is more of an accomplishment to do most anything with a less effective method. Choosing to swing flies for steelhead rather than indicator nymph is to adopt a self-imposed constraint that limits success when measured in hook ups per hour angled. Sort of like traditional bow hunting (recurve or longbow) limits one to spend more hours to get within range for an effective kill shot than with a modern firearm. Then there are contemporary compound wheel bows, that are analogous to indicator fishing in that they allow success rates similar to some firearm hunting because of their extended range.

    The less effective method is not a superior method. It is just less effective, and in this case, is more traditional, which has value in itself to some folks. Another aspect of traditional swing fishing that I think is over-looked is that it effectively spreads a limited resource among more users due to its inherent limitations. The NF Stilly is an excellent example of this. A large part of the original intent of the NF Stilly fly only regulations was in the recognition that allowing anything goes fishing would rapidly deplete the native summer steelhead population. And that would not be good for the fish; and it would have meant recreation for far fewer anglers. Of course this was all before the notion of CNR was a part of angling consciousness, let alone fishing regulations, but it still applies under contemporary CNR circumstances.

    Ira, you with your superior method and preference for it and acquired skill set may kill or sore mouth steelhead that would have provided recreation for 6 or 10 traditional anglers. Surely you don't think I ought to congratulate you for that now, do you?

    BTW, if you know what the mystique of the swung fly is, would you please tell me, because I sure as hell don't know. It is a mystique to me however, because I cannot fathom why steelhead, and other fish, move to it, just as I cannot fathom why they grab a dead drifted plastic bead. But I am grateful that they do, the swung fly, that is.

    Yes Ira, I have read a number of your other posts on this subject. What I take from it is that you seem to take this internet topic a tad more seriously than I do. I'm mostly having fun with it while also trying to mix in a small amount of educational content, which I may not be very successful at.

    And yes, you should encourage other anglers to swing flies so that you can have all those unmoved steelhead to your indicating self, if that's what you really want out of this sport. We should meet for a beer and then see how much time we're really willing to waste on this topic.

    Sg
     
  10. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

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    I say no to any private meetings, this debate is far to entertaining to stop now !
     
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  11. stilly stalker

    stilly stalker Tuna sniffer

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    If we wanted to use the most effective method of fishing we'd all float fish with bait and a centerpin
     
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  12. Irafly

    Irafly Active Member

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    Salmo, I didn't really lose any respect, what I meant by reading my other threads is I get just as much entertainment out of these threads as anyone else and I don't like to see them die without a good old fashioned dare I say traditional jab. From my end I thought your post towards me was a bit funny and not meant to be offensive. I haven't seen one thing posted about this topic so far that would convince me to feel bad about the way I choose to chase fish. Not in the least. If it seems that I take it serious I do so only in mirrored opposition to some of the swinging zealots.

    As for the debate about impact on fish. I've said it once and I'll say it again if it were really about impact on fish then the people wouldn't fish at all. And the idea that I hook more so I take away someone else's opportunity to catch fish is really, really, really, beyond humanistic reality, almost communist in presentation (not using the word communist in a negative way). If that is the case then yes I do expect you to celebrate my success and I bet you have done just that in your own way for other situations when someone does better than expected. Can you imagine looking down upon every persons success and only seeing it as a lost opportunity for someone else? If you have that over emphasized sense of empathy, I'm not sure how to feel for you...sorry...envious...proud? Honestly if a swinger told the story of hooking 6 and landing 2 on the North Fork of the Stilly would you admonish them for taking away the fishing opportunity of others? I don't possess that kind of self control, and I hope I never do. For me it is still about catching fish for the most part the way I enjoy catching fish, and I do love indicator fishing.

    Are you also suggesting that once hooked a fish is done for the season and never bites again, thus taking it out of the equation for all other fisherman? Now I get it if I'm bonking my hatchery brats, which I will do with abandon, and I won't feel a bit sorry for the traditionalist that didn't get to fight/eat that fish.

    I ready for that beer now.
     
  13. Irafly

    Irafly Active Member

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    Oh come on Benny, you me a gill net... ah I mean indicator and a beer/whisky, could be fun.
     
  14. stilly stalker

    stilly stalker Tuna sniffer

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    Ira- I've done a lot better than 2 for 6 swinging the NF Stilly ;)

    Hook placement in the mouth may be the only difference, BUT I was working for WDFW while we were doing the angling mortality/ satellite tag project for steelhead on the Samish. Bait, gear, fly... 70% of all hook placement was in the safe area of the mouth. We had 1 deep hooked bait fish. Thsts it. Most hooks regardless of under float, caught on spinner, etc were in the upper jaw, with corner of the jaw a close second.
    If bobber fishing does anything to the fish- it exposes more fish to potential angling mortality- which was shown by the same study to be extremely low- I think it was sub 1%
    I think the biggest variable to angling mortality is speed of capture, delicacy of release.
    If you "play" a fish on 4# mono and super light drag for 30min..... It's gonna have a much better chance of dying. :( if you fight it hard on appropriate gear and revive/release in a hurry.... Your fish has a good chance of living, regardless of angling method
     
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  15. Red Arch

    Red Arch Active Member

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    I take it as a good sign fish do laps in my net then?
     
  16. stilly stalker

    stilly stalker Tuna sniffer

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    Yup- if they are fighting your net ( assuming you aren't using a shitty rope net that destroys their slime layer) they have energy enough to be quickly revived and released
     
  17. David Dalan

    David Dalan 69°19'15.35" N 18°44'22.74" E

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    Swing beads. Use it as a "trailer" behind a fully dressed Thunder and Lightning. Or other suitable swingable. Just be prepared to hook all your fish on the bead :D

    Just not on the NF, as I am pretty sure that is illegal.
     
  18. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

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    I'm up for it,But after my resent alaska trip I'm cash poor so you will have to have your own bail out money.
     
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  19. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    The problem with nymphing is that is sucks. Pure and simple, it is no fun. I'd truly rather not fish than fish a bobber of any sort in the river. Hooked fish don't get me excited if nymhed up. I'd rather be mowing my lawn.

    I truly 100% don't understand the alore at all. I find the thought of nymphing unpleasant at best and hate seeing nymphers or even internet discusions of nymphing because it sucks.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
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  20. triploidjunkie

    triploidjunkie Active Member

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    That's funny, because I feel the same way about swinging flies. I call it "brain drain" because it's so mind numbingly boring. I usually set my girlfriend up to swing flies because getting a drag free drift with a nymph is too challenging.
     
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