Is it a mans fly fishing world??

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Kaari White, Jul 8, 2006.

  1. Kaari White Active Member

    Posts: 825
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +31 / 0
    I'll preface this with: I've been fly fishing the majority of my 26 years and I also hunt birds, so I'm not at all unaccustom to participating in male dominated sports. Also, I'm extremely self reliant and tie all my own knots, my own flies, own better gear than most guys I fly fish with, and I know what I'm doing.

    So, what happened yesterday was a first for me and was definitely a surprise.... I've been going on a group trip of around 15 people (all middle aged/late middle aged men) to a chain of lakes near Little Fort, BC for about 5 years. I've made it up there 3 of those years. Usually I know about half the people that go and of those, 3 to 5 I consider friends. I should be leaving for 2006's trip this coming Wednesday.

    But I'm not. There was a vote taken yesterday and it was decided that the majority of people going do not want a woman there. I was pretty shocked/upset!! I've been reassured by those I know going that it's not personal (and that they'd love to have me go), but the people that don't know me don't want me there.

    Is this a common feeling?? I go on a lot of sporting related trips every year and now I'm rethinking whether or not I'm welcome. Should I just shut up and bake cookies for the "real" fishermen??

    Are having women around a distraction? Are we annoying in some way? Remind you of your wives in some way? I don't understand how having me around is going to prevent guys from acting like guys- its never been a problem before!

    What's the deal?? Someone please enlighten me.

    Also, I'll glady go on any sympathy fishing trips if anyone is offering. bawling:
  2. Scott Whited Member

    Posts: 131
    West Seattle
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    that's f@cked up. i can't believe your real friends didn't stand up and say if she's not welcome i'm not going either. sorry to hear about that.
  3. Pat AV Member

    Posts: 91
    Burnaby, B.C.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    In my time I have never seen anything like that and I think that the majority of people including fisherpeople are pretty open minded. We don't see many ladies fishing up our way but when they do I think everyone is cool with it. I am always helpfull to other anglers regardless of their sex. If guys don't want to hang out with girls I quess all you can do is let them be boys!

    FYI the lakes around Highway 24 have been fishing very poorly lately, some of my friends were up there last week the lake surface temps were over 70 degrees and daytime temps in the shade were 30+ degrees (thats celcius). These guys are all good rods and only managed a few fish. So you won't be missing great fishing.

    I was Planning a HWY 24 trip from July 11-15 and am reconsidering due to the negative reports out of the area. Now I am just trying to figure out where we are going instead we may even make our first foray south to try some of your washington waters!

    Send a PM if you want to meet up on the water!

    Regards,

    Pat
  4. Michael Brady New Member

    Posts: 300
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    You probably intimidate them. Not used to women who like the outdoors and fly fishing. I believe it is rare, because I have been looking....

    It also could be that this is there only chance of the year to get away from their wives/girlfriends, so its a guy thing for them to do. Kinda like Red Green at Possum lodge or something.
    Heck, I dunno.
  5. Starman77 Active Member

    Posts: 176
    Kent, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +69 / 0
    I don't think what you experienced is common. I think most guys would enjoy having someone like you along on a fishing/camping trip. It certainly sounds like you know how to take care of yourself and your equipment better than most guys. You'd be welcome on any of my outings. The only thing I can think of is that maybe one of the wives of the guys was jealous or something and didn't want their husband to become interested in you, but that is pure speculation on my part. I'd recommend letting it go and just organizing trips with friends you enjoy that don't bring up this kind of issue. Life is too short to get bitter about something like this.

    Rex
  6. o mykiss Active Member

    Posts: 1,297
    .
    Ratings: +168 / 0
    Your presence would have put a damper on their plans to dress in women's underwear and dancing around the fire at night?:confused:

    Seriously, that is pretty lame.
  7. Allan H Member

    Posts: 57
    Everett
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    I'm with "xcaddis" on this one.

    If your friends didn't stand up for you, then that's pretty F'ed up. :hmmm:

    As a fellow CWU graduate (class of 2000) and a fishing enthusiast, you're welcome to fish with me anytime. :beer2:

    Allan
  8. Ian Broadie Flyfishing is so "Metal"

    Posts: 670
    Kirkland, Washington
    Ratings: +57 / 0
    That's f'in jacked...... Discrimination no matter what the motivation behind it is one of the few things that gets my shorts all in a bunch. :mad:

    I am prolly gonna go hit the Sky next weekend and due to how my fishin' buddies schedules are working out I was planning on going alone but company is always welcome. If you wanna go lemme know.
  9. Josh Benjamin Member

    Posts: 988
    duvall, wa
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    My wife flyfishes with me, has better gear than most of my buddies and is a blast to have around. the guys don't mind at all. in fact she typically holds a "clinic" on how to catch fish for the rest of us:mad: . i enjoy the time spent with her.
    we did run into a few old grogs at lenice one year that were telling us about their flyfishing club. they were totally shocked to see a woman out there ff'ing and proceded to tell us there would never be a woman in their club.
    sounds like maybe a re-evaluation of the friends is in order too...
    sorry that happened.
  10. Kim Ferris left-handed sort of way

    Posts: 151
    prosser, wa
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    they've got problems which may be solve-able, maybe not.

    you have only one problem - time to recycle those friends. fishing and 'group trips' are not a gender thing. my daughter encounters the same attitude periodically, she's also very outdoors oriented and quite self sufficient. that combination for some people is threatening - she tends to lose those associations over a period of time. you're better off without them - as disappointing as this situation is, you could have been let down by these same people in a more critical situation. you know how to fish, seem comfortable in your own skin, and won't have trouble with anyone finding another fishing group. look forward, there's lots more people interested in your interests - they were holding you back.

    k
  11. newcaster2 New Member

    Posts: 24
    SEA, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I loved it when my wife fished with me a few times. I will introduce my daughter to it when she is older.
  12. mike doughty Honorary Member

    Posts: 10,163
    the uinta's
    Ratings: +5 / 0
    That's about as ignorant as it gets and if those that you considered friends were really friends then they would have done a little more about it, i know i would have even if i just ended not going either. i feel the more flyfishing woman the better, that's sexy. i don't feel that flyfishing is a man's place anymore then a kitchen is a woman's place. sincerely chefboyrdoughty
  13. Mike Etgen Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here

    Posts: 1,433
    Port Orchard, Washington, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I'm sure the same guys who told you it wasn't anything personal (and really believe this...) would also swear that there's no racial discrimitation anymore.

    I don't direct that at them personally, by the way. ;)

    You've already confirmed the age range, and I'll guess this is an all-caucasian group. I'm both older and caucasian, so I can say this - most older white guys grew up in a different era, or had a father that age who was likely surprised and confused by the way their orderly world started to change in the 60's. All that change in their familiar institutions has left many of them confused even to this day. Coincidentally, some of those places and organizations where men could go and smoke cigars and harrumph about all of this have dwindled. That's not my opinion, that's fact.

    So, the rules they grew up with seem to have disappeared, even though they seemed to work just fine. People (read: minorities, women, etc.) show up where they never expected them. The old jokes and remarks make them suspect, and they get a little surly and defensive, and start grumbling about political correctness and "no one can take a joke anymore" and the circle of friends they can really trust shrinks daily. Maybe, as John Prine sings it, "Your wife yells at you and your kids are all freaks."

    So, unconsciously, they grab those seemingly few opportunities to go back to those good old days. And even if they're not sure it's right (like your friends, maybe) they all sort of understand how it feels and in the safety of the group, go along with it because, after all, that's our people.

    Before you younger guys rush in to tell me how far off base I am, be honest with yourselves. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, just suggesting that we be a little more realistic. People don't change that quickly. I've stood and listened to racial/sexist jokes because I didn't have the stones to call someone on them. Most of us have. Recently I had a complete stranger (white male) walk up to me in a fly shop a couple of months ago and turn an innocent question about fishing into a diatribe about the "f&*#@% Indians" who ruined this or that fishery. He felt safe with me because I looked like someone who might empathize with him. It sort of pissed me off inside, but I let it go, because he was not coming from a place of reason, but a place of fear and ignorance. It happens on this website. It's life.

    CWUGirl, it has to be disappointing to have proven yourself and then been pushed aside by a bunch of morons who don't know you and won't give you the benefit of the doubt. They'd never admit it, but being as good as the guys; well; that's not good enough. They're Ignorant at best, or the concrete in their heads has set up and the dial is set at Stupid and though they'll retreat when they have to, they ain't gonna give it up and they ain't gonna change. The war for their hearts and minds is lost.

    You're obviously a concerned, astute individual, based on what you've offered or contributed here in the past, which is all I have to go on. You're better than the no-voters, and you're probably lucky you don't have to be around them. A week around their passive-aggressive BS would have probably ruined the trip for you.

    The lack of your presence is their loss, and they won't even realize what they lost.
  14. Dick Warnke was Pram-Man

    Posts: 761
    Federal Way Wa
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    I've got to go along with the thought that you need to reavaluate among that group who your real friends are. I agree that had it been me I would have told all the nay sayers to take the proverbial flying f*** at the proverbial rolling dougnut and formed a new smaller group consisting of you and the few that had the cojones to stand up for you and set out for a destination as far away from the othe a holes as you could get. I am sure that anytime you want company on a fishing outing there are plenty of straight up people on this site that would be more than happy to put in sometime on the water with you. Laugh it off, wright them off, an stay with it.:thumb: :thumb:
  15. Kaari White Active Member

    Posts: 825
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +31 / 0
    After a couple more phone calls this morning, I got to the bottom of the situation. There was no vote. The trip is organized by one guy (I'll call him Douche bag #1). Well, DB1 organizes the trip for both his friends, which I thought included me and some of the select customers of his company. His best customer (I'll call him Jackhole) is going on the trip. Any, Jackhole told him that he did not want a woman in camp. End of story.

    My friends are pretty upset about it (including my father who is going on the trip!). Since they've all commited to going, they're still going, but it'll be the last year.

    I'm still pretty embarrassed for being singled out as not being in the cool club. The really ironic part is that I'm by far the most serious fly fisher that goes on that trip and I'm no longer welcome to attend.

    Thanks for all your kind words, guys. It is screwed up!! I get that men might just want to hang with the guys on occassion. Its just a little different when an annual trip is suddenly excludes one person.
  16. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    I agree with what has been said for the most part. Reconsider your friends could be a start.

    One thing that hasn't been brought up yet... But many of you still won't like it, but it could easily be part of it....

    Perhaps some of the wives are exactly thrilled about their husbands camping out with a girl they don't know - especially since you aren't 'attached' to one of the men.
  17. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    OK, I posted at the same time you were. Sounds like it's the 'old boys club' attitude.

    It's kinda silly I guess, but I can see some trips being 'with the guys'. They are free to think that way just as you are free to fish with someone else. But I'd think your dad and his and your friends should have stuck to their guns better...
  18. John Hicks Owner and operator of Sea Run Pursuits

    Posts: 2,126
    Olympia
    Ratings: +179 / 1
    Chadk,

    That thought never crossed my mind, but here is my retort to that. It would be one thing if you were going it alone with "Jami-Wa" on a trip, but to be going with a group of people, one of which is the father of the girl.

    Tell them all to get F-***ed fish 50 yards from their camp and start fishing to their fish. Catch said fish and make sure to hold it up for a glory shot with them in the background of the pic crying.
  19. Allison Banned or Parked

    Posts: 829
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Yep, happens sometimes. Sucks, doesn't it?

    I'll fish with ya even though you are a girl. I might need help with a couple of my knots though. ;)
  20. snbrundage Member

    Posts: 111
    seattle, wa
    Ratings: +3 / 0
    Something of a relative, more of an acquaintance, once joked about doing psychanalysis over the internet. I said, "That is not funny, my grammer checker keeps telling me I have written a passive sentence or phrase." Then I asked this English professor what is a passive sentence. He said it means that there is no author. No one to take responsibility! For instance, " It may be that, or it could be that, or perhaps, or it may be true that, it is possible."

    I will not write a passive sentence in this instance. If the situation is accurate as you last described it then your father is not deserving of your fishing company. I will bet that the wise and compassionate people on this board who advised you to re-evaluate your friends are looking for ways to say this. It is clear from the previous posts that it is not the fly fishing world that is excluding you, it is your father.

    Re-read ee cummings, college woman, where he says " I didn't know, I didn't know you could jump up and tell them all to go take a flying rimbeau at the moon." Then contact those who have offered, and go fishing with them, damned secure in the knowledge that you will have pleased.

    Steve