I've had it!!!!!

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Rob Blomquist, Mar 9, 2002.

  1. Rob Blomquist Formerly Tight Loops

    Posts: 1,343
    Mountlake Terrace, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    I was just hanging in my local flyshop, when some pipsqeak told me his dad caught 40 steelies while fishing for whitefish, but he only caught one whitefish while fishing on a river that just closed recently. He wished it was still open to fishing for "whitefish".

    A little over a week ago, I was in another nameless shop when a guy announced loudly that he was about to go fishing for "whitefish" on the Methow. His buddy assured him that there were plenty of steelhead to be caught incidentally to the whitefish.

    These two are the sort of folks that caused the Methow to close to all fishing not long ago. I really don't care what any fisherman thinks of how many fish are in the river, and what that means to the viability of the run. I care only what fisheries biologists think about the run, and what WDFW cares to do to protect those fish.

    I have my beefs with WDFW, but it is about not being protective enough of our native fish not about being over protective. When a river is closed to fishing, its closed to fishing by all of us. I really don't care to hear from the braggarts about illegally fishing, and I don't care to see anyone fishing in closed waters. If you don't respect the fish, I don't respect you.

    If you are fishing a river or lake when its closed, I will report you either through your boat registration, car license or your name if I see it, and I will take a picture if I have a camera. If you are standing behind a counter in a store, I will tell the state what store, and who you are. If you post a note on the net about fishing illegally, I will report your email address and where the post was made. And if its here, I hope that Chris throws you off the board.

    I'm tired of all the crap from so called "concerned fly fishers". I don't care what club you are a member of, or what article you wrote. If you are fishing for a closed species, or fishing in closed waters, you are hypocritical, and I think of you as I think of pond scum.

    Beware, and hope I don't catch you fishing illegally.

    And I hope that there are others out there that will do the same.

    Rob :REALLYMAD
  2. FishPirate New Member

    Posts: 107
    Darrington, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Amen. I'm on the lookout too. I hear a lot of folks use "whitefish" or "dollies" as an excuse to fish for other species (primarily steelhead or chinook) and at the same time talk about how "interested" they are in the resource. What hypocrites.
  3. Greg Moore New Member

    Posts: 315
    Ellicott City (Baltimore), Md.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Next time you hear someone bragging about catching fish illegally on a river that's closes try and get their license plate number off their car (without them knowing what you're doing) and turn that info (river and plate #) over to the WDF&W. Hopefully they would then patrol that particular river more often to try and catch these offenders.

    I agree with you and hope that they smarten up!


    Greg
  4. Randy Knapp Active Member

    Posts: 1,132
    Warm Springs, Virginia, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I understand your concern but...

    I doubt his dad really caught 40 steelhead while fishing the Methow with a size 14 (3/16" gap). In fact if he was using the right size hook, I doubt he caught any. If these guys are poaching by using illegal gear than they ought to throw the book at them. If they are using legal gear in legal water than the problem is regulations and closing the river is a valid option anytime.

    If they should accidentally hook AND land a steelhead and then release it, the damage would be negligible so I doubt they are hurting the fishery. Again, assuming they are using legal tackle.

    I specifically target dollies for catch and release in the Skagit and Sauk (it is legal where I fish and when I fish)and I incidentally catch steelhead, salmon, whitefish, rainbows and cutthroat. Sometimes I go up to specifically fish for white fish with a beadhead nymph of my design and incidentally catch the other species. I fish strictly from the bank and rarely see other fishermen unless I'm low on the river.

    There are a lot of factors and politics in what is open when and why and regulations should be rigorously enforced. But I wouldn't lose sleep over anything I heard in a flyshop. "They fish, therefore they lie!"

    Just my two cents and I live in Seattle which is a winter and spring away from the Methow.

    Randy
  5. ray helaers New Member

    Posts: 1,088
    .
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    TightLoops-- ABSOLUTELY!

    The local PUD up on the Methow did a radio-tagging study on steelhead to see how many were winding up trapped in irrigation ditches. 25% of the tags they retrieved were in peoples' freezers! Such is the world we live in.

    The Methow Steehead are ENDANGERED. Intentionally catching and releasing them is a federal crime. If you kill one while intentionally trying to catch and release it, you're guilty of a "take" under the ESA, and potentially liable to fines in the tens of thousands of dollars range. You'll deserve it.

    The "whitefish" fishery on the Methow is a crime, but I also have a huge problem with the C&R "trout" fishery during the summer. The potential take on adult steelhead is more remote (though still significant, considering the state of the resource, and the published regs potentially allow a big impact on spring chinook, also Endangered), but the potential impacts on juvenile steelhead is high, and in some ways worse, because a lot of people will be doing it unknowingly, thinking they're catching small rainbows. There's evidence of juvenile steelhead in the Methow spending 4 years and more in the river before smolting. At least in the winter, it's only the minority of jerks willing to poach we have to worry about.

    Politics can certainly be a factor in WDFW management decisions, but NO river ever gets closed for "political" reasons. When they finally do get closed, it's almost always way too late. Go ahead and be pissed when your favorite river gets closed, but don't take it out on the fish.
  6. guest Guest

    Posts: 0
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    That almost sounds like the Tye River. It's open for whitefish from Nov 1 to Feb 28 from the Foss river to Alpine Falls. But it is/has alot fo Steelhead in it.I've seen some big summer runs in there when I used to fish it in the summer. I guess I just had to bring this up. I can't see opening any river up for one kind of fish and close it for another.Jim S.
  7. Kf3er New Member

    Posts: 8
    Issaquah, WA, King.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Make all WA rivers CR. I'd be just fine with that.
  8. rockfish Member

    Posts: 730
    Manchester, Wa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    that would be a good call kf3er. thats the biggest hit to the fish is the river. Ben
  9. Denny Active Member

    Posts: 4,043
    Seattle, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +46 / 0
    Though I generally agree with you, I suspect some of those folks would be there legitimately fishing there for whitefish even if there steelies weren't there.

    And, by the way, folks who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and you shouldn't be tossing any rocks. When you (and I mean "you" specifically, not "you" rhetorically) cease to "fish for searuns", and instead coho, from beaches that are closed to fishing for salmon, then you can get on your stump. Until then, you are not different than some of those Methow folks.

    Richard :TSKTSK
  10. fishnfella New Member

    Posts: 148
    Grand Coulee, Washington, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Fish till ya drop.
    Then suck it up
    and fish the evening hatch.

    I've had it too. I see too many cases of hungry illegal and legal immigrants loading up buckets of "overkill in their vans". I see Seattle people on Jameson and other Seattle hangouts limiting in the morning and then going our for their "afternoon" limits too.
    I see overzealous fisherman practicing "illegal" catch and release with powerbait or other bait. You are killing your sport as most of these fish will die.
    And I see every "power baiter" fisherman littering the shores with their stinking garbage, beer cans, and snarls of line from spinning reels they don't know how to use.
    The only way to stop some of the abuse I guess is to start filing "Citizens Arrest" cases in our courts.
    The only thing I haven't seen lately is a law enforcement officer or game warden out working. Do we still have these critters?? :REALLYMAD
  11. rockfish Member

    Posts: 730
    Manchester, Wa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    richard who are you talkin about? you aint flappin your jaw about south sound resident coho are ya? because the damage to a fishery is far more great in rivers catching smolts and snaggin fish an all, and I believe the wdfw was or still is experimenting with the release of coho from the net pens because all the delayed releases in the 80's put a crux on the fishery, it basically hit the skids. to much fish for to little food. but there were or still are trying to put the fishery back how it was when I was a youngin. you have next to zero scum fly fishin the salt and doing damage as you have 95% scum in the rivers snagging and takin fish. think about it. well buzz bombers and spinner freaks are the killer in the salt water. unless single hook.but I think there is gonna be a mandatory single hook rule for all fishin in the salt for hook mortality, but the amount of people fly fishin salt water and the impact on the fishery is a far less damaging to the system then releasing tired spawning fish who end up dying, trampling over eggs/redds, snagging fish when there not even feeding but lived there life and doing there deed to be harassed by a bunch of snaggers. from what I have seen here on the penninsula I have no problem what so ever closing down hurting rivers during spawning time. unless its a hatchery run it shoulb be closed anyway. Ben
  12. rockfish Member

    Posts: 730
    Manchester, Wa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    or maybe I shouldn't post when I got the buzz goin
  13. Dan Member

    Posts: 621
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA.
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    We all have similar problems. Trout and salmenoids cannot sustain themselves under the pressure from a degraded environment and intense fishing pressure. (That includes commercial fishing in Washington state). We have made some progress in this regard in Colorado as I relate in a recent post about the South Platte. I would think that a similar approach would work in Washington. How many of you are members of TU? Every time I visit Washington, I am struck by how casually people seem to regard the wonderful resources they have. I think that it's been there and been so plentiful for so long that some people feel entitled to it. I didn't really understand that until I moved away. Pushing for C&R waters is a wonderful idea, but it takes organization and commitment. Everyone has to turn out when the opportunity presents itself for public comment. You have a great resource in this BB and if you focus all that energy I think that you could make progress!

    Dan
  14. Paul Huffman Lagging economic indicator

    Posts: 1,409
    Yakima, WA.
    Ratings: +128 / 0
    WDFW is on to the whitefish scam. I was checked twice last month. I can't remember ever being checked
    anywhere before. But they were quick and friendly, just verifying that I knew it was closed for trout and
    steelhead. But you can see the pain in the ass it must be for the enforcement section to check on bozos like me
    who happen to be checking out pools that everyone else knows are the wrong place for whitefish. Also, check
    out the proposed 2002-03 reg package. On a bunch of east side rivers, you'll have to be fishing a #14 hook or
    smaller in whitefish season. Which is fine with me. When I was checked, the officers didn't even bother
    looking at my terminal gear. With this reg change, now they'll have an effective rule to determine intent.

    But really! I was fishing for whitefish, because they were easy to catch on artificials and yummy on the
    barbecue. But lately my mojo's gone. All I hook up is big trout on little black nymphs. Am I going to have to
    start raising maggots?

    On a somewhat related note, I was thinking about trying out a new bonefish rod by annoying some Columbia
    River carp this spring. But in reading the regs, some of the riverside sloughs are "lakes" that don't open until
    June 1 in the reg package which further states "Fishing for COMMON CARP is open only during open game
    fish or salmon seasons." Even though I may sarcastically quip that I'm glad we're preserving our carp for
    posterity or that I solemnly pledge to release all unclipped wild carp, especially those of "evolutionarily
    significant populations", I understand the enforcement headache there'd be if they had to determine intent by
    extra angler checks and rule making. Even though I might be flailing shallow muddy water, they don't need to
    be writing a reg that determines how shallow and how muddy you have to be to actually be targeting carp.
    And there's other sloughs that appear not to be "lakes" so I'll take it to the judge that they're open for carp, just
    like the rest of the Columbia Bonneville Pool.

    It's kind of like that old joke where the guy walks into a bar with a crocodile on a leash. The bartender says
    "you can't bring that crocodile in here!" But the guy says "But he's a trained crocodile and he's very well
    behaved". The bartender has to admit that the crocodile is very well behaved but says "if I let you bring your
    crocodile in here, then I'll have to let everybody bring their crocodile in!" I've always been trying nutty new
    ideas and attracting unwanted attention.
  15. Denny Active Member

    Posts: 4,043
    Seattle, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +46 / 0
    Ben, philosophically I agree with you about not harassing the steelhead. Bottom line is, though, the rules are the rules, and bending them or justifying them for your instance, in the case of the coho, but then complaining about another person who is doing the same thing, in the case of the steelhead, isn't correct.

    For example, robbing stores is illegal, last time I checked. Using your logic, what you are trying to say is, to draw an analogy, it's not right to rob Mom and Pop wee little grocery store (the steelhead in our analogy) because they are a small resource, but it's ok to rob Wal Mart because Wal Mart has so much money and is a big resource (the coho in our analogy). It's the same act, robbery, and it's still illegal, no matter what the size of the resource.

    Same thing for our this fishing discussion. Rob B. shouldn't be complaining about the guys targeting steelhead when they are 'catching whitefish', when on the other hand he targets coho when he's actually 'fishing for searuns'. It's called being a hypocrite.

    Richard

    P.S. How come you don't use the shift key to capitalize letters?
  16. Rob Blomquist Formerly Tight Loops

    Posts: 1,343
    Mountlake Terrace, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    Same thing for our this fishing discussion. Rob B. shouldn't be complaining about the guys targeting steelhead when they are 'catching whitefish', when on the other hand he targets coho when he's actually 'fishing for searuns'. It's called being a hypocrite.
    [/quote]

    According to my copy of the WDFW fishing regs the Methow is open to fishing for "Whitefish Only", consequently it is a crime to catch a steelhead.

    But now, salmon are not "closed" to catch and release in the sound, except in certain places at certain times. In general, as I read the regs, the sound is open year around to the C&R fishing for salmon and searun cutts, as are the rivers and streams for dollies and bull trout. Marine are specifically stated as closed to the capture of Dolly Varden/Bull Trout.

    So, it is legal to fish for SRCs and any salmon in the salt year around, so there is nothing wrong in fishing for them. I don't target dollies in the salt, either.

    But the regs clearly state that the Methow is open for "Whitefish Only". And if someone is bragging to me about thier catch, I will report them, no questions.

    Oh, and if the best you can do is call a guy you don't know a hypocrite, I feel sorry for you.
  17. guest Guest

    Posts: 0
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Who are you. The Capital police.
  18. Randy Knapp Active Member

    Posts: 1,132
    Warm Springs, Virginia, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    The salt is by no means open year around for cutts and salmon. For example, Agate Passage is closed to all fishing right now. Closed means just that. No catch and release. No bottom fishing. Nothing. Sometimes areas are closed specifically for salmon but open for Sea Run catch and release. For example, sometimes you will see guys at Point No Point fishing off the beach stripping their flies like crazy when it is totally closed for all salmon (July for example) but say they are fishing for cutts even though you never catch a cutt there, only salmon and bottom fish. This is an example of targeting one fish under the guise of fishing for another. Now I am of the opinion that catch and release fly fishing does precious little damage to any fishery. My gosh, even a place like Rocky Ford, where a zillion guys fish every day with wimpy 2 and 3wts and 6x or 7x tippets and play fish nigh unto death, sees only a handful of kills. I might add that it is very obvious there when a fish is killed. If the incidental kill rates were even close to what some say they are, then the banks and bottom of Rocky Ford would be lined with dead fish. The issue is really not fly fishers using size 14 hooks but meat poachers pretending to be on the river for some reason other than poaching steelhead for the freezer. It is just too difficult under current budget restraints to have enough enforcement officers to get the steelhead harvesters so they are forced to shut down the river to make enforcement simple.

    Randy
  19. rockfish Member

    Posts: 730
    Manchester, Wa
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    in a sense the south sound is open all year. the 2001/2002 season is open all year for salmon south of the narrows. probly allot to do with the fact its not a mega blackmouth fishery like other places but has the winter/spring ultralight/fly fishery. theres rules and desinated areas but its open 365 days a year to legally fish for salmon. agate pass is closed because true cod spawn there in the late winter early spring. i am guilty of fishing for cutts in july at pnp and area. seen kings hooked regularly there doing that time fishing for cutthroat. never myself but that you would be the shiznit to land a king wading the sound on a fly.ben
  20. Rob Blomquist Formerly Tight Loops

    Posts: 1,343
    Mountlake Terrace, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    Without a doubt the whole sound is not open year around, but about 90% of it is at anyone time.

    C&R is poorly studied at best, most mortality studies focus on fisheries that are wholly freshwater, and all the anadromous regs are based on the freshwater studies (but let FishPirate correct me on this, he's the expert). I question the use of freshwater studies on anadromous fish, as they are in two very different places in their lives. One is ready to spawn and C&R may inhibit the spawning in some way, or just that mortality may be higher due to the size of the fish and the nature of the migration.

    When the state is closing a fishery to prevent extinction, then I am all behind them, and that is just what is being done on the Methow.

    If one is selfish enough not to care about extinction of a stock of fish, that sure does not bode well for the rest of the fly fishing ethic in my book. I would expect that a fly fisher that follows the C&R, care of the fishery ethic could embrace the closure of a river to protect the fishery. It sounds to me like the baitfisher ethic: chuck bait, and take your limit every day, and praise the hatcheries.