JoePa

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by freestoneangler, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. gldntrt40

    gldntrt40 Member

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    Can't forget college sports do allow many inner city and underprivileged kids the ability to go to college and prosper and give back and a direction for youth while growing up with the hopes of staying in school for hopes of a scholarship.

    I was a NCAA Div 1 college athlete (track-nothing glamorous or money making or even much pro potential besides european pro meets) and I saw first hand kids that would not have been in school without sports and it also enhanced my college life and it was work and not parties and it carried over to where I can coach and help youth.

    Just trying to point out that there is more than a silver lining besides the obvious money making side to college sports and all businesses. Look at us here. Our love of flyfishing is a niche for folks to go pro as it puts food on the table for guides and game department folks and rod designers.
     
  2. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    I guess I'm fed up with fallen idols and leaders, and what I see as our society's increasing willingness to forgive them for some unbelievably huge mis-steps.

    Just this weekend Newt Gingrich won the South Carolina GOP primary, with a vote tally that included the largest share of evangelical votes. He achieved this despite having dumped two wives at the moment each was diagnosed with a serious illness, and carrying on an adulterous affair at the same time he was denouncing another fallen leader, Bill Clinton. I understand evangelicals' core belief in forgiveness, but Newt is so systematically flawed, that I just can't connect the christian belief in forgiveness of one-time sins with their support for Newt. He makes "mistakes" too regularly and he's too smart for it to be anything but calculated and the result of a deep character flaw. Then there's Dubya, Nixon, Blagojevich (and seemingly nearly every other governor of the state of Illinois). And that's just the tip of the iceberg in politics.

    Back to sports, there's Barry Bonds, Marion Jones and the rest of the BALCO client list. That's just the tip of the iceberg of disappointing sports heroes. Go Nittany Lions!

    Let's not forget our religious leaders starting with the catholic church which, right up to the top with Pope Ratzenberger, whose catholic church appears to exist in part to be an organized pedophilia ring. And lest we think that sort of overt moral failure is just a Roman issue, let's not forget the many home-grown bible thumpers like Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker whose personal conduct in comparison with rhetoric is a joke. Once again, these examples are the tip of the iceberg in religion.

    In business, the length of the list rivals that of the politicians.

    Etc.

    To whom great priviledge and honor is bestowed, great things are expected. This isn't a demand for perfection. No one is perfect. A small mis-step or two with small consequences is absolutely forgiveable. But that's not what we're talking about with Paterno or the many other systematically failed leaders and idols who appear to me to be failing us in increasing numbers and increasingly ball-faced ways. We just keep forgiving them for reasons that I can't fully comprehend. I'm just not falling for it ever again. I want accountability for high failures of responsibility.

    I'm out. Time to get my son back to sleep, speaking of responsibility.
     
  3. gldntrt40

    gldntrt40 Member

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    My last on this but you hit the nail on the head.
    The greatest heroes, and it really is true IMHO, never get the press, they are the good parents and the people who sacrifice without
    any notation and have gone without so their kids or someone's kids can eat. All this celebrity is total BS.
    In keeping with the site, it is not the killer who takes home the giant Hoh river native and applies for a record, it is the fisherman who catches and releases a fish without
    perhaps a picture or measurement.
     
  4. Brookie_Hunter

    Brookie_Hunter aka Dave Hoover

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    Sometimes it's better to say nothing at the moment than go on ranting particularly mentioning despicable people whose personal lives that aren't comparable in the least. But from what you said above and before on this topic, you clearly don't know who Joe Paterno was and are completely judging his 60+ years of work on one unfortunate incident which he clearly admits fault and coming up short on his own ideals. Despite being a head football coach at a major University, he was an enigma in the college coaching ranks even in the mid-1960's when he became head coach, let alone today. Penn State clearly became one of the best University's in the country, public or otherwise, and it was because of Paterno not just being a football coach but one who had a much broader vision for the University and the kids attending it. For god sake, the University Library has his name on it not the football stadium. And not to besmirch any of the great coaches in college past and present, but I guarantee few of them ever even entered the library on their respective campuses and some would probably have to be escorted to find it. Sure Paterno's legacy will be tainted over the Sandusky affair(yeah that's the real criminals name as it's hardly ever mentioned in this whole sordid affair) but probably none of us on this forum will have more positive influence on others at the end of their lives than he did and it had very little to do with football.
     
  5. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    True, Paterno wasn't the monster. And he did many great works in his career beyond football. I fully acknowledge those facts.

    You and others seem to put his good deeds on one end of a scale, and his bad deed on the other end. You weigh the two sides and say that, on balance, he was more good than bad. I can see the logic in that.

    But in my opinion his single bad deed was so awful and affected a number of innocent kids so deeply, that it becomes a trump card and I don't even do the good-vs-bad weighing calculation. He allowed a monster to prey on little boys for nearly a decade, and judging from his own comments to Sally Jenkins last week, he knew he should have done more. That doesn't put Paterno on the same level in criminal terms as Sandusky, but it does call into question his storied leadership and teaching powers. At the most testing moment of his 60+ year career, he failed to lead, and he taught his pupils that covering up for a buddy and preserving the status quo of the program was paramount. There are things that cross a line, and this was one of them. That seems obvious to me, and is the source of my (acknowledged) rant.

    If he is absolved after an objective investigation, I will fall on my sword here and take it all back. But I don't think I'm going to need to do that.
     
  6. Brookie_Hunter

    Brookie_Hunter aka Dave Hoover

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    All I can say is that I almost completely disagree with your version of the facts, assessment and conclusion especially in regards to Paterno's complicity in some kind of cover up. If that were the case, he would have been charged vis a vis the Grand Jury investigation which as far as I can tell was objective and completely thorough.
     
  7. Nooksack Mac

    Nooksack Mac Active Member

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    This may have been said already; I don't want to wade through 12 pages of threads to check: In his partial defense, consider Paterno's age and background. He was part of a generation still heavily influenced by Victorian reticence. Many men of that time - except for perhaps trading a few "dirty" jokes - were unable to have a serious conversation about sex, ever.

    Paterno's life and death were a vivid example that part of living a successful life is to leave it at the right time. How much better it would have been for him and us if he'd died six months earlier.
     
  8. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Good grief Lugan, you may want seek some professional help for some of this...venting here on WFF is cool and we're certainly all here for you, but seriously.

    You bounced from bashing Catholics to bashing Newt to George W. Bush to Nixon (thanks for throwing in Blagojevich) to Barry Bonds to Jim Baker...wow! Not sure how much history you read, but the world has always had and I do think always will have men and women who do bad things. Some get their just due, some do not -- our legal system is also imperfect and has been shown corrupt at times.

    In the case of Paterno, he has not been proven guilty in a court of law... public court of opinion perhaps, but not in a court of law. Regrettably, his passing will leave a major void in getting all the facts.
     
  9. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    I absolutely over-reached venting on this topic on a flyfishing site. Mea culpa. bawling:

    On the other hand, if you start threads on a controversial NFR topic, someone will fire up the howitzer every time. It was my turn. :mad:

    And now I'll refrain until we get closer to the election in November. :)
     
  10. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

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    I'm sure after reading this blog that I could benifit from professional help . Do you have any sources that may be able to assist me????
     
  11. wadin' boot

    wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

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    Damn I wish Christopher Hitchens could have taken a peek at this thread before he died. Him, I will miss.
     
  12. ribka

    ribka Active Member

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    You forgot to mention the Hon Dem Barney Frank and the selling of boys for prostitution from his
    residence in DC.

     
  13. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    +1
     
  14. fifafu

    fifafu Guest

    I take it back this is about Joe Paterno.
     
  15. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Pretty close to slander their Ribka. You may want to review the record on this one.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  16. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    I think internet slander doesn't count since anyone on an internet forum is, for all intensive purposes, universally regarded as an asshole,..or at least there's a high probability they are. No offense to this fine community,....or myself.
     
  17. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    This made me laugh, as it would some of my friends and colleagues on the faculty there, I'm sure. Penn State has become a pretty good university over the past few decades, although it would have to be a pretty big list of "best University's [sic] in the country" for it to be one of them. It is the excellent faculty that make Penn State, or any university, great. The amount of dollars brought in by the faculty at Penn State in the form of grants and contracts every year would make Paterno's gifts seem puny by comparison.

    Wealthy donors have names on university buildings everywhere, but don't confuse that, or their football team winning records, with what makes universities great.

    D
     
  18. Brookie_Hunter

    Brookie_Hunter aka Dave Hoover

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    Richard, I think you're 100% wrong in regards to Paterno's influence on how that University itself has developed over the past 50 years. For full disclosure, I never attended Penn State but I have many friends and family members who went to school there (B.S. - Phd) and some who worked for the University as well. My Mom also went to grad school there in the late 1950's. Penn State is better than a "pretty good" University and I find it surprising that your colleagues there actually would chuckle at that notion. Paterno was not only concerned about the football team and athletic programs but the entire University as a whole. Through his entire tenure at Penn State he was intimately involved in creating the atmosphere and means in getting that high caliber faculty in place. There are many metrics in which to evaluation the quality of an University but here's the evidence for my position on Penn State, I didn't do an extensive search this is what I'm aware of:

    http://news.smeal.psu.edu/news-rele...-1-among-recruiters-wall-street-journal-finds

    http://live.psu.edu/story/56092

    http://live.psu.edu/story/43177

    http://www.psu.edu/ur/rankings/

    None of these were accidents either:

    "During Paterno's time with the Lions, Penn State has had 47 Academic All-Americans in football, with 37 earning first team honors. The Lions' all-time total of 49 Academic All-America football players ranks third among all FBS institutions and leads all Big Ten institutions.

    In the 25 years they have been eligible (all within Paterno's tenure), the Lions have been recognized by the American Football Coaches Association (AFCA) 21 times, including 2011, in their annual Academic Achievement Award survey. Only Note Dame and Virgina (22) have more honorable mention citations.

    In 2011, the Lions also earned the top spot in the fifth-annual Academic BCS rankings, as determined by New America Foundation's Higher Ed Watch with 117 points, followed by Boise State (107), TCU (101) and Stanford (100)."
     
  19. gldntrt40

    gldntrt40 Member

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    Penn State also was the home of legendary flyfisherman, writer and faculty member Joe Humphreys.
    He always had his PSU hat on while landing monster Brown Trout.

    I read his books/articles about flyfishing at night and it opened up a great world for me.

    I'll give Penn State some extra points right there!

    http://www.joehumphreysflyfishing.com/studentfund.htm
     
  20. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    Brookie, you cite some good stats for the quality of some Penn State programs. I'm with you on that. Including the athletic 'academic' honors doesn't fall in the same category as the list of Fulbright scholars that PSU has had, however. Give me a Rhodes Scholar over an Academic All-American any day (you realize that those Academic All-American honors are compared with other Div. 1, NCAA football players, right?)

    As far as the chuckling, it is with regard to your comment that the growth in stature of PSU is due to Paterno and his "much broader vision for the University and the kids attending it." Heck, the Gates family has, no doubt, given more to UW than Paterno did to PSU, but I don't think anyone is saying we're a great university, "because of the Gates' family's vision for the University," least of all, the Gates.

    D
     

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