Just one big, happy family...

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by livetofish, Sep 18, 2006.

  1. livetofish

    livetofish Fish to Live

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    "... headed out from Puge-opolis to the third rock down from the blahblah launch, (an area conveniently outed here earlier), and whaddya know... other boats and lots of fishermen" .... Composite quote taken loosely from a couple of posts in another thread with over 1000 views that I won't justify with a bump.:beathead:

    May I suggest an alternative report format, taken from my weekend outing:

    Fished an area 13 beach Saturday on the flood. Actually, returned with the boat to an area first scouted last year by foot. Relatively steep cobble beach near a point and a very small freshwater input, with some larger rocks and down timber. Lots of smallish (16-24 inch) resident fish and lots of action drifting with the current parallel to shore about 60-100 feet out and throwing purple over pink clousers back toward shore on a light sink tip. Saw one large school of mature cruising silvers, but no love from them. Most fish seemed to take between strips, so that if you waited until you felt them, it was too late. Hookups improved by keeping the fly shallow and watching for the take, setting by sight instead of by feel.​

    Hmmm... let's see... what did I forget... OH! I know! The name of the freakin' launch and the damn GPS coordinates! And the fact that we didn't see another soul out there!

    C'mon people, figure it out... techniques, tackle, tides, general areas, beach characteristics, etc. are all someone looking for info needs to help them catch fish, if they just provide a couple of things themselves... initiative and a sense of adventure. Specific locations DO, DO, DO lead to crowding and diminish the experience for all, especially those who actually do their own homework. Flame on.
     
  2. Shawn MD

    Shawn MD a.k.a. Riverfisher99

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    I have read all the "related" threads over the last day or so....

    Done a lot of thinking and mulling...

    Keep in mind I m a big time rookie.....but....iagree iagree iagree iagree .



    Shawn
     
  3. Mike Etgen

    Mike Etgen Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here

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    livetofish...

    You know, I've been coming onto this site for about three years now and I think perhaps I'm reading some different posts than the ones that set you off.

    Yes, once in a while someone will offer quite a bit of detail about the what, where, when, etc. of a succsssful outing. And sometimes, someone will respond to a fishing report with a request for inordinate amounts of detail. I think those kinds of post reflect the level of interest and enthusiasm you would have every reason to expect from someone new to the game. I don't think I've ever been guilty of offering too much, (because I know I don't know that much...) but I will say that I sometimes asked too much when I was a new member. Sometimes, I think I just wanted to be heard and acknowledged. Over time, though, I think I reached a sort of equilibrium, if you will, and now my questions are fewer and I also have been able to "read between the lines" a little better in order to gather the information I feel I need.

    Unfortunately, there's been a consistent undercurrent of resentment towards the individuals who ask (or offer) what the rest of the crowd feels is "too much." And that's what really needs to be called out, in my opinion. I think most of the folks who come in here as true newbies - new to the sport, or the area, or the species - just want a shot at a little success. That first jolt usually sets off the intiative and sense of adventure that will move them forward on their own.

    Watch and read the posts from the other knowledgable types who post to this site. They're patient, courteous, never condescending, and provide just enough guidance and detail to give someone a chance to go out with the expectation of some success. They "act like they've been there," to use a sports cliche.

    I do think you make a good point about over-exposure of truly good locations, and your concern is valid. I also agree that there are some folks who come in here looking for the sure thing. Fishing is one of those sports where there's still a mythical component, I think, and some folks still believe that there's ONE UNIVERSAL SECRET that the fishing gods reveal to a few true believers.

    My suggestion,if it's too hard on you to remain silent and recall that rookies make rookie mistakes, is try a personal response to them and courteously point it out. You'll likely make your point more effectively, maybe make a friend, and you may feel better, too, because you'll be using your wisdom to a good end. Then again, maybe you did just the right thing this time, because you got me thinking about it, and maybe some others will, too.

    I umpired a lot of amateur softball my younger years, from church leagues to highly competitive independent leagues. Over time, the players seemed to sort themselves out into three general groups:

    A. The casual players who knew their limitations and were just grateful to be out there having a good time.

    B. The decent players who though they were really good and needed a stage where they could prove that they coulda, shoulda. mighta, been a star "if only."

    C. The really good players, college baseballers, etc.

    Guess who gave me the problems?

    If the Group B players had demonstrated the class of the Group C players, even though they weren't that good, they'd have been "acting like they'd been there." We have the same choice here.

    Personally, I know I can't fish like some of the really great individuals on this site, but I sure can try to act like one of them.

    Flameless, hopefully,

    :thumb:
     
  4. mat1226

    mat1226 Active Member

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    Mike,
    That is very well put. You probably will not get many responses as you basically hit the subject out of the old proverbial ballpark.
    Now I think I will get off my butt and put my boat in the water tomorrow and see if I can find a coho somewhere south of the Canadian border and north of Seattle.:thumb:
     
  5. salt dog

    salt dog card shark

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    :thumb:
    Well done Mike.
     
  6. Shawn MD

    Shawn MD a.k.a. Riverfisher99

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    Aggreed Mike. You basically said what alot of others may have been thinking. I dig the way you put it. Thanks!



    :beer2:


    Shawn
     
  7. Josh Benjamin

    Josh Benjamin Member

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    Mike...again...well said.
    thats how it should be done.
     
  8. wildman

    wildman New Member

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    Hows Mazama Jim?
     
  9. MrP

    MrP Member

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    An articulate and thoughtful response Mike. Thanks. TTU :thumb: :thumb:
     
  10. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

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    Who was that masked man...?:cool:
     
  11. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

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    Well put Mike. I will say this though. If you take the time to buy a gazeteer or a Thomas Guide at Costco, and have the independance to ignore this site and especially the flyshop boards, this stuff can be even funner. Find water, whether it be creeks, rivers, lakes, ponds or beaches and give the regs a check. Then go fish. Alot of this type of exploring is 3 and 4 weight stuff, but then again alot of it is 6-9 weight stuff. A 10 inch rainbow in a creek in North Seattle on a 16 caddis you tied yourself is alot of fun. How about an 18 inch rainbow in a little pond behind HomeDepot somewhere. There is a pretty good sized Army base we all know about with good fishing. WINK! The list is endless. So is a 17 inch searun under a bridge on your way to one of the "rivers". So is a steelhead that kicks your ass on the same caddis on a little river you thought only had little trout. So is your first cabezon on a beach you found yourself. So is a 5 pound bass in a golf-course pond. So is a brown that is too big for its surroundings in the Alpine Lakes. So is an incidental Sockeye in a feeder stream 25 miles above unpassable falls. Get the drift? It's endless. There are still runs of steelhead, and salmon in the Seattle proper area if you are willing to hustle a bit. Now granted, this also means days where you find out the water you found is void of fish, or on private property, but isn't that fishing? Ya worried about getting skunked? Go to another sport. Today. Getting skunked doesn't stop you from learning to roll cast better, or work on you swing, or casting around that tree that's in your way. That's all part of this too, I thought. Getting better each time, right boys? Maybe it is the instant gratification society we live in, but flyfishing is supposed to be a departure from that shit. Hell, if you drive the mountain loop there is every species of fish imaginable from creek to pond to river to lake and in between. Nobody gets any extra respect from catching fish. No one walks out of the bar with the hottest hen because they catch fish. Well maybe someone has, the point is we should do a better job of sharing the experience not the catch. Like alot of us, and I mean alot of us, I've caught alot of steelhead and whatever else, but my fondest days were when I followed a hunch, sweated my ass off, lost my fly box, broke my ass and at the end of the day landed a little bit of nature's perfection in an un-named body of water that no one knew anything about or cared about and got to slide that fish no matter how big or small into the dark blue. Then I giggle my ass off all the way back to the rig. I feel like it's my way to get over on all those sorry bastards in the rat race who don't know what that feeling is. All by myself, just my rod and me and those fish no one knows about. And the mosquito bites, and scratches and bruises. I'll trade one of those trips for 3 days of combat fishing, even if the fish are big and plentiful. That's flyfishing to me, and if you newbies haven't felt that way yet, something is wrong. Get off of the internet and grab some topos (Metzgers Maps boys) and go get your ass kicked. Then when someone does post your favorite spot, it won't piss ya off, because you'll have 15 backup spots. It's called flyfishing. Tight lines boys
     
  12. Charapa

    Charapa New Member

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    iagree well put, glad to have company w/ 'thinking' like that! :thumb:

    Regards
     
  13. livetofish

    livetofish Fish to Live

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    Thanks, coach. You made my general point, without my sh***y, bashing attitude. I just get frustrated sometimes trying to stay ahead of the crowds to find new (to me) water and/or new fish, only to have someone post about the spot I worked hard to "discover". Granted, the spot was almost certainly only "new" to me, but for me, a large part of the reward of well over 30 years of flyfishing the NW is in the discovery and the search, and I get ticked (right or wrong, there it is) when the "instant-gratification-saw-it-in-a-magazine-or-on-the-internet" crowd shows up. These folks are not exclusively "newbies" or "veterans", just lazy. I know, I know, they will always show up eventually... but... whether it's in one of the flyfishing mags or here, I'm always frustrated to see the paragraph that starts by talking about what a beautiful quiet sport this is and then finishes with a list of specific locations. One old article comes to mind about SE AK steelheading that touted the beauty and solitude of discovering wild steelhead runs in small island streams (awesome article up to this point, lots of great tips on do-it-yourself steelheading, etc.) and then specifically outed "sleepers" I had fished for years (EDT, if you're out there, FU). I'm not talking the Situk; true sleepers. The next spring, I saw people in places I had never seen anyone before. The examples are endless. Bottom line is, I love to talk about the hunt, the techniques, the fish, but will always stay away in public forums from naming names. Sorry, everyone, for the attitude, or for not being "one of the really great individuals on this site", or for being a "group B Player" but that's how I feel.
     
  14. Coach Duff

    Coach Duff Banned or Parked

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    I'm with ya 100% brother. I come across as abrasive even when I don't mean to. I would do anything for a flyfisherman in need, but I think of this sport as a marathon, not a sprint. I think a little bit of mystery is good for all of us. Much apologies to Matt Burke a few weeks ago when I came unglued about giving reports. The more I think about things, the more I feel like we should give beginners just enough info to succeed, but to leave gaps they need to fill on their own. That's how I was taught. Pull the experience out of them and make catching fish secondary. With kindness and respect and without ego. Thanks Burke, ya done me good. Semper Fi Coach
     
  15. Mike Etgen

    Mike Etgen Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here

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    iagree

    Not only does that make perfect sense to me, I'm sure anyone could understand and respect that, and you couldn't have said it more clearly.

    Actually, I'M sorry. By no means did I mean to question your attitude and I sure don't know enough about you or this membership as a whole to have much more than the faintest idea about who really knows this game. I just know that there's a handful of regulars who seem to know what they speak of (like the hunt, techniques, and fish) and have what I feel is a great way of "speaking their truth." And I hope that if I ever have that kind of wisdom, I'll remember where I started.

    Bottom line for me is, you raised a good point and got some thoughtful responses. Not every topic gets that kind of response, and for everyone who reads it and has something to say, there's probably many more who will read it and come away with a different perspective.

    Peace :thumb:
     
  16. Denny

    Denny Active Member

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    Mike, I know where you're coming from, but sometimes this approach just doesn't work. I've tried it before, and instead the person copied and pasted my post to him for all to see. Heck, the location now even got more attention.

    What I find is interesting is that some folks EXPECT to obtain detailed information from their new Internet buddies, and sometimes get pissy if folks don't give it up. :thumb:
     
  17. Denny

    Denny Active Member

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    I'm with you, man.

    People need to exercise discretion when posting about specific locations. Some spots just can't handle a gob of folks, and people need to consider before disclosing info on the Web that will be there for as long as the website is around. A person can write a report about a generic location or general water, say the Yakima, without giving away too much. If someone else contacts you offline to maybe get some information, that's the way to do it.

    :thumb:
     
  18. wolverine

    wolverine Member

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    Being both a fly and a gear fisherman I am continually amazed at how polarized this "where to" issue has become. On the one hand there are those (not just newbies but lurkers who never contribute anything constructive to the boards) who want/expect GPS coordinates to the exact rock that fish were caught from. On the other are those types who get upset if you mention which state that the fish were caught in.
    I can understand the problems that posting about resident trout in difficult to access hike in locations can cause. People have worked long and hard to find these spots and it find it difficult to see these spots divulged. What I don't understand is their moaning about large river systems and salt water fisheries where the target fish are anadramous and are here today and gone tomorrow. We can't put the genie back into the bottle as the internet has and will continue to shorten the learning time for new fishers. The old "pay your dues" by putting in the time and finding your own spots is no longer applicable. If the info seekers don't find it here they'll find it elsewhere. We'd all be better off if we concentrated on teaching proper ethics and respect for the resource instead of taking pot shots at each other.
     
  19. chongfk

    chongfk Member

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    It's sad to see fly fishing has become so "exclusive" and "secretive". It seems like only a certain "elite" fly fisherman (with 30+ years of experience) has the right to certain fishing spot. I am sorry, but I don't think this is a positive attitude for the sport of fly fishing. No wonder fly fishermen always has this high-up, mighty, and egoistic image for most others, which is not healthy for the sport.

    Exploration for new fishing locations is great. I admire those who are able and willing to do a lot of exploration. I did a lot of exploring back east when I am still a student. I find enjoyment in finding new water, new scenery and new fishing location. I find enjoyment in the journey of exploring but I do not resent those who reach my favorite fishing creek through an easier journey.

    To think some fishermen would differentiate fellow fishermen by how hard they discover their fishing location make me sad. So you have discovered all the perfect fishing location with over 30 years of hard exploration, you might deserve a national parade for your hard work, but does that mean you have more right to fish a location then those who discover it from the net or from the magazine? Of course not!!! It’s public water and everybody has the same right to it. Is it ethical to disclose some of the “premium” fishing location to the public? Sure it is. Disclosing a public fishing location hurt no one except the pride of some self-proclaim “true fly fisherman”. To share or not to share is a matter of personal choice and practice. You don’t like to reveal your almighty fishing location? Fine, but you can’t stop me from revealing mine. It’s my right and I consider that as helping others. Will I ever get a thank you for sharing? Probably not, but I sure don’t need anyone’s lecture on what I should or should not write about in a fishing report.

    I hope there’s a book out there that’s call “All the Secret Fishing Spots in Washington State”. This book contains maps that reveal all of the secret fishing spots throughout Washington state with detail descriptions. When all secrets are reveal, there will be no more secret and it will forever put an end to this discussion. Am I worried about crowded fishing situation? No, not at all. I truly do not believe that average fisherman will wake up at 5am or earlier to go fishing, or hike 10 miles to a beautiful fishing location, or kayaking miles of shoreline to look for jumping baitfish or so on and so on. If they do, doesn’t that show their passion for fly fishing and aren’t we fly fisherman are suppose to encourage this kind of passion? If some one can hike a day, crawl through bushes, beat and bleed to reach a location, does it matter if this some one get the information on the net or magazine? You tell me.

    The above is solely my own opinion. In no way I am trying to offend anyone by writing these. I am merely presenting a point of view that is different from the original poster.
     
  20. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

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    Hey, this is a pretty civilized thread. I should throw in a few superlatives and aggravate everyone so that our reputation doesn’t get thrown off track. All very well said, especially mike and coach. I’ve always been amazed at what the anonymity of the web will bring out, both good and bad. As of late I’ve been thinking that us class B and C players really ought to help out the newbies (I never admit to not being able to learn more from others so I really try to be a class A). It really wouldn’t be that big of a deal for me to meet people out on the river during the week. My waders are back in “never get a chance to dry out mode.” As we’re sort of a club, I’d like to see a “Sponsor the Newb Campaign.” Because I know, you get people out from behind their computerscreen; they are not the same person.