Lead

Discussion in 'Cast & Blast' started by andrew, Oct 26, 2009.

  1. andrew

    andrew Active Member

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    So has anyone heard more than just rumors that WA state will be lead free next year for all small game/upland bird hunting?
     
  2. Upton O

    Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    It's coming but I hadn't heard that it would be next year.
     
  3. Smalma

    Smalma Active Member

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    See page 20 in your bird pamphlet.

    Looks like more to come in 2011. What with the rules on federal lands, as well as more state land as well as for waterfowl I made the decisions several years to shot nothing but non-lead shot for all my hunting. With the enactment of RCW 77.15.400 (mandatory $1,000 and 2 year lost of small game hunting privleges for a lead shot violation) using non-lead makes even more sense.

    By the way at the recent regulation meeting there was a group pusing the banning of lead in fishing (if I recall correctly no lead less than 2 oz). They are going to submit ideas to the commission this year and expect to hear more and more about it.

    Tight lines
    Curt
     
  4. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    Below is what came forth in a report back in April.

    "Under one new policy approved by the commission, WDFW will phase in an expansion of state restrictions on the use of lead shot, which are toxic to birds and other wildlife that ingest it. Noting that toxic shot has been banned in hunting waterfowl since 1991, Brittell said WDFW has been expanding that prohibition to other hunts around the state.

    New this year, hunters will be required to use non-toxic shot when hunting upland game birds or mourning doves in three units of the Sunnyside-Snake River Wildlife Area, where ingestion of lead shot by wildlife is of particular concern. In 2011, the non-toxic shot requirement will be expanded to all established WDFW pheasant-release sites."
     
  5. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    You know, I've been a bird hunter for over a half-century, and while I've heard there are studies out there that support birds dying from ingesting lead, I have yet to see one that's peer-reviewed in any scientific journal. Personally, I believe this is a lot of bullshit. Just that-a "cause" for those idiots who have none to latch onto. In 57 years of bird hunting, the only birds I've ever seen that died from lead poisoning are the ones I've shot. My daughter, the wildlife ecologist, claims that it's true. Show me the studies, otherwise this whole lead hype is like Euell Gibbons' rant about pine trees: "Many parts are edible".
     
  6. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    The only poster child they have is the condor and Washington says they want to reintroduce the condor to the state.

    Long story short, it is all bullshit!

    Our only hope is that the east side splits off from the state and becomes it's own state. The west side is hopelessly liberal and wussyfied (how's that for a new word...?)
     
  7. Smalma

    Smalma Active Member

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    Alex -
    There are lots of studies on the impacts on lead. If you are so inclined just try a couple googles and you will find lots of documentation of problems of lead in the environment and imapcts on various birds. Suggested topics
    1) Swan and lead shot
    2) California condors and lead bullets
    3) loons and lead sinkers

    If we hope to see hunting to continue as a valid form of recreational with need to keep ourselves informed on this issues and behave in a responsible manner. Keeping our heads in the sand will not make this problems/issues go away - just our sport.

    Tight lines
    curt
     
  8. Connor H

    Connor H Bobbers n Beadz

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    Eating steel can't be good either... It's all a load of crap.
     
  9. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    Curt, never mind Google, tell me the last time you saw a loon, swan, or a condor while hunting forest grouse?

    In my 25-30 years I can say never once....

    So someone please tell me why I might have to switch to non-lead shot in the uplands, other than to make some warm and fuzzies feel warmer and fuzzier....:rolleyes:

    Here's a challenge, can anyone find a single pellet in the forest that I shot over the last several decades? I highly doubt it, and neither can the loon, swan, or condor...in fact when did the last condor leave Washington...?
     
  10. Smalma

    Smalma Active Member

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    This business of trying to hang on to our lead shot remains me of some of the debates in the angling world against selective fishing, bait bans , etc.

    Roper -
    First you don't have to convince me. However there is little doubt that lead in the environment is not a good thing. There has been huge pushes to address leaded gasoline, lead in paint, etc. This has become a very emotional issue for most of the public and unless we have done our collective home work we will have no chance.

    Across the landscape when we have lost hunting areas and opportunities it has generally been on emotional appeals by the antis and the public buys it. To fight that we need to use the best science we can and acknowledge the problems and what we can to address bona fide issues.

    Connor -
    Lead is much more toxic than steel. It becomes a criticial when an animal such as a swan gets a lead pellet in the grit it eats to aid with the grinding of its food in its gizzard. In the grinding process the lead pellet is reduced to the point that it enters the birds blood. As little as single lead pellet is enough to produce a lethal dose even for a bird as large as a swan (some in excess of 30#).

    Tight lines
    Curt
     
  11. Connor H

    Connor H Bobbers n Beadz

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    Curt, I fully realize that. I am not trying to be a jackass but this is the way i feel. Does anyone know where I can find some number 8 steel??? I hear quail season is gonna be off the hook...
     
  12. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    Curt, so are you saying we should just suck it up and go non-tox so our hunting areas aren't closed down? :confused:

    So bullshit wins and reality takes a back seat...what a load of crap.:mad:

    "Lead in the environment" is vague as hell. Can't any of these bureaucraps make logical boundaries for non-tox based on actual land use/hunting impact? Why shoot for a state wide ban when it's not required?

    I know, because it's easy for them...
     
  13. Eastside

    Eastside Guest

    I don't weigh in on much with this forum, but will do so here. I have hunted upland birds and ducks for 40 years. In my opinion, the impact of switching to steel will be greater than lead because it's kill impact is far less. There will be alot more crippled birds that go to waste with steel shot. This is all B.S. Does anyone know if it extends to rifle ammunition?
     
  14. J.Butch

    J.Butch New Member

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    Good God Andrew... Way to stir up a real shit flinging fight! Hahahah....
     
  15. andrew

    andrew Active Member

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    Jon - at least now I know who might buy some extra lead off me! :clown:

    The real bullshit are the ammunition companies that charge 2-3 bucks a pop for a nontoxic shell...who do they think we are...flipp'n Annie Oakleys? Nationally we continue to lose hunters every year...the average if my memory serves me correct is roughly 2%. This 2% represents a healthy chunk of state revenue, environmental funding (habitat restoration, etc.), and of course revenue for stores, filling stations, and lodging. I truly believe if they ask hunters to be lead free and don't do anything about the ridiculous ammunition fees that 2% will be 5.

    If anyone is interested in 12 ga. #5 Kent Fast Lead let me know...my goof can be your win!
     
  16. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    I've been watching this coming for years and, BS or no, it's going to be a real part of our hunting life. Even though I sympathize and tend to agree to a point with Roper, I think Smalma is dead-on. Better to get used to the idea. I won't like it, but I'll get used to it (hopefully) and continue to hunt upland birds.
     
  17. xdog

    xdog Active Member

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    You have obviously never hunted with a good retriever in a public waterfowl area. If you had you would know like myself it is not uncommon to pickup 2-3 lead poisoned birds daily without even trying to find them. On slow hunting days and or post season I have actually solicited the dogs to hunt for cripples and pheasants in obscure areas and you can readily double that number. If you had further ever seen first hand a poisoned bird and or choose to educate yourself enough to understand how a poisoned bird dies you would likely fully support banning lead shot as I do.
    Are you attempting to become the poster child for Eastsiders who are RedNeckified?

    Good hunting regards,

    :)
     
  18. xdog

    xdog Active Member

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    Absolutely not true and has been argued for years unsucessfully when waterfowling went non tox many years ago. Todays non toxic shot loads are far more lethal than any lead shot loads were 20 or even 10 years ago. Any imagined or real "additive" cripple mortality due to imagined inferior loads will never begin to close to the real mortality of lead poisoned birds we will continue to have many many years after a lead ban.
    Here is some light reading if you care to educate yourself about what you discuss. I really think the first two links cover the issue nicely. There is of course volumes more reading available on the topic. Of course I say the best thing is to see lead poisoning first hand as I have, I really wish I could bag up the sick poisoned birds I find and send them to you guys and you can watch them die quite slowly.
    Oh and I dont believe lead bullets are targeted in future bans nor in my opinion should they be.

    http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/pbpoison/index.htm

    http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/wdb/pub/wmh/13_2_6.pdf

    http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/35/4/766.pdf

    http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26676--,00.html

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/a52g6e3gn9b2cgme/

    http://www.tws-west.org/transactions/Moore '77.pdf


    More good hunting regards,

    :)
     
  19. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    You're right, I don't hunt waterfowl. But do tell me, what is lead shot doing in a waterfowl area? Hasn't it been banned for decades?

    Oh, poor shot on the last comment, try again...:rolleyes: ...must have been using steel...
     
  20. xdog

    xdog Active Member

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    You are correct lead shot has been federally banned almost for decades (1991). There remains two huge problems, first is that much lead is still settled into the silt on the bottom of waterways where waterfowl still and will continue to ingest it for decades more to come. The other large problem is that you and I can still legally go out tommorow and hunt upland with lead along most waterways and deposit even more lead into the water. Heck where I hunt which is usually somewhere close by after I am done waterfowling for the morning half or more of the pheasants I shoot end up in the middle of a river, slough or pond of some sort, which is part of the reason I stopped shooting lead for hunting many years ago.
    Lead shot poisoning is very real. If you read some of those they studies suggest we continue to lose as many as a estimated 2 million birds per season to lead poisoning, I happen to believe that is a real possibilty.
    If you havent shot the new steel loads which are relatively affordable I think you would be surprised at very lethal they are. If you are really worried about lethality or shooting long ranges shoot Bismuth or Hevi-Shot either are superior to any lead loads. I shot both for several years and they both are truly awesome.
    The inconvenience of going entirely non-tox are grossly minor expense and effort compared to the very huge benefits waterfowl and other wildlife will reap.

    You are also correct about the parting bad shot (redneckified) I apologize for that, but as a westsider you lumped me into being "wussified". I should have thicker skin I have and will be called worse.

    Tight lines and smoking barrell regards,

    :)
     

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