Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by eJohn, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. Waterside, I suspect the issue is not that you were spending a day fishing and filming: The issue is what you might do with the footage.

    You say that you "will receive some press". Along with the Methow. This means that you, personally, will be responsible for a very disproportionate amount of fishing pressure that the Methow receives in the future.

    Just my opinion. :hmmm:
  2. Jack,
    Thanks for the clarification on your filming. As I mentioned in my post, it was a rumor, so I presented it as such. My "pimping" comment was not directed specifically at you, but at the practice of "selling" rivers or other bodies of water for personal profit. Maybe the shoe doesn't fit w/ your Methow footage. I personally have no objection to guiding. Though I've never used one personally, I've heard many great stories...including one's about you. I also recognize that a lot of guides are some of the best advocates for conserving fisheries and water resources. Consequently, I think it's great that you made your client's day by showing him how to skate AND actually catch fish. However, I take issue with folks who do media spreads or circulate film footage that will reach a much larger audience and potentially bring significantly more pressure on an already pressured fishery. I notice on your site that you don't always divulge destinations. I assume it's because you don't want to bring undue pressure on lesser known fisheries. The same concept applies here. There are many opinions on this subject on this site alone, that just happens to be mine. Sorry if I offended you.

  3. I just went through the web site, simply because I thought this statement went against the grain of what I have heard about Jack's operation. The only photo that I saw labeled so that you know it was a SH and had an adipose fin, was in the water. Are there some shots that could be questioned, yes - likely so depending on facts we don't know. But, I didn't see any fish that appeared to be handled in an inappropriate manner. As for being illegal, it depends on whether it is legal to retain the fish, so it depends on where the fish photo was taken, the species, time of year, the year it was taken, etc. I'm not looking to start a fight or defend every picture on Jack's or anyone else’s site, but generic statements that slight another are not really appropriate (imho and yes you have a right to your opinion). Given the number of posts you have, you clearly are not calling out every bad photo on this site, so why pick on Jack, he was simply nice enough to clarify what was going on.
  4. As the proverb goes, "he who is without sin may cast the first stone".

    Let's not hijack this thread into a witch hunt. I've fished with Jack, and he runs a first-class operation. It's not his fault the Methow is getting fished hard, and he is not "personally responsible" for anything other than running a business and doing his job - putting his client on to fish.

    As for the pics of wild fish out of the water, browse through the gallery of THIS SITE for awhile. There's lots of pics like that posted by our members. Like stated above, only fish that must be released cannot be totally removed from the water.

    I doubt there are any "fly fishing saints" among us.
  5. Maybe not yet, but when you go out of your way to capture a sensitive fishery on film and then allow it to be distributed to the masses, what do you think the effect of that is going to be? Are fewer people going to come? Or are you going to have a bunch of yahoos from every corner of the world show up next year with their 5 wt. trout rods to do battle with ESA-listed fish for 30 minutes at a time? You have to realize that putting something like that out for mass consumption is going to have consequences. An effort like that has nothing to do with putting one's own clients onto fish. Ironically, if I blabbed about about certain places on this site (can you say Rattlesnake Creek, or a couple years ago, the upper Columbia trout fishery?), Evening Hatch would consider it extremely poor form because they are special and/or fragile places and EH would not want them ruined for their paying customers. If the shoe fits . . . . :eek:
  6. Did you guide for 'whitefish' too?
  7. OK, I guess we should outlaw all fishing magazines, guide services, and TV shows. All bodies of water are now given "zipperlip" status. Further, if you don't live in the State, you can't fish it. Finally, all equipment must be certified as adequate to pursue your intended quarry(in order to keep the "fight" as short as possible), and all cameras are illegal - NO HERO SHOTS.

    Sounds a little extreme, doesn't it?? A little "over the top", maybe?? Sorry if I laid the sarcasm on a little thick, just trying to make a point.

    Of course fishing pressure will probably increase if the Methow is advertised in the supposed upcoming show. Do we know that names and places will be given in this upcoming show? Even if specific locations are divulged, we're talking about a "year-by-year" fishery here. Only when sufficient fish make it over the dams and the OK's are given is this river open for fishing. I doubt NMFS and the WDFW will allow the endangered fish to be further harmed by an increase in catch-and-release fishing. They'll just shut the thing down.

    Now, if I was in Jack's shoes, why would I do anything to possibly close a river that I have clients paying money to fish? That doesn't make any sense.
    I would definitely like the publicity, however, with a hope for increased business. I don't think anyone here would turn down a chance to be televised if we owned our own guiding service. Let's be real here.

    I don't know how certain guides and businesspeople suddenly became enemies of the fish on the internet BBs. Guys like Jack and Dickson seem to get a really bad rap, and I don't think it's fair. Heck, 99% of the time someone asks about fishing a certain river for the first time, people always recommend hiring a guide.

    I guess guides are OK for teaching, but once they start earning a living they are only in it for the money and become part of the problem. :rolleyes:
  8. Absolutely agree ncitrez. Guys like Jack and Dennis have every right to make a living, doing what they love. I just thought it was a tad disingenuous for Jack to dance around the fact that his marketing may have an impact on a fragile fishery.

    But guys like Jack are not the problem... They are trying to survive right along with the fish. More power to 'em. If the fishery was not so compromised by other issues, this would be really exciting for Jack and the local economy. I hope it turns out that way.
  9. Actually, it's not a proverb, it was Jesus speaking to the Pharisees as written in John 8...

    But you are right on, my friend.

    St. Roper...;)
  10. No, but LB does...(Papafsh):rofl:
  11. I think there is a burden of responsibility when you film or promote a fishery that you be careful that the fishery can take the added pressure. There was a noticeable spike in the summer fishing pressure on the Methow when NW Flyfishing published their article. Press DOES affect fishing pressure. Even the WDFW is careful about this. They have an article about fishing the high mountain lakes and they were very careful to make this point as quoted here from their website.

    "Lakes were selected using the combined experience of members of the Washington Hi-Lakers and Trail Blazer clubs and WDFW professional biological staff. These lakes are on maintained trail systems or have road access, and are considered able to withstand the increased fishing pressure that might result from their listing here. "

    I have a concern about the Methow fishery being sustainable with the madhouse that it turns into every year. They already determine seasons on a year-by-year basis, and honestly the fishing isn't THAT much better than the OP rivers, SW WA rivers, or even some westslope rivers. Also, the fish are smaller, and don't fight nearly as well as the chrome fish you'd hook up with on the OP. If the pressure becomes too great on this fishery, I have concerns that they may start to limit it a little more, or even be more hesitant to open it in the first place.

    I don't know anything about this particular filming, but I do have a general opinion about the responsibility of filming in particular.

    If you want to make educational videos, fine, but stick to the information, and leave the name of the river out of it, unless you know it can sustain the pressure. Want to name the Columbia River while doing a shad-fishing video. Go Ahead! Want to do a high mountain lakes video on some 2 acre gem of a lake, better not name it, or it will have no fish in it a month later. The Methow obviously falls somewhere in between. Don't make a video to promote a specific fishery unless it can handle the pressure. Fly fishing is becoming more and more popular every year and it doesn't take much press for a fishery to become saturated. The Methow is already there. Don't add to it.

    Just my two cents.
  12. Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with guides, fishing shows, magazines, etc. I think they have a right to earn their living and they can be a valuable tool. BUT, I also think they have a higher burden and responsibility than the rest of us, since protecting the resource is part of their profession. They can serve as a valuable tool for educating people, not only on how to catch fish, but how to do it in an ethical manner with the smallest amount of impact on the overall fishery.

    I think that the shows should focus more on techniques and skills, and species, rather than specific locations.

    I know, it is a catch 22. They need to promote a certain fishery if that is where they make their living, but they can destroy it in the process. Places like the Evening Hatch (purely out of random mention, not because I have any experience with them or incentive to list them) are a better example, because they don't necessarily promote a certain fishery (as far as I know...). They guide essentially wherever there is currently a good fishery and what people want to fish for. If they want to fish steelhead, and the Methow is open and fishing well, they will go there. Otherwise they will go down to the Klickitat or Grande Rhonde.

    They have a right and they need to make their living, but they walk a fine line, and guys who see a fishery they have participated in long before it became popular will lash out at the ones they see as most responsible for increasing pressure on their fishery. If somebody has a TV camera and every other sentence in the show has the word "Methow" in it, they are going to make for an easy target.

    My suggestion? If this video was about the proper technique on skating flies for steelhead, then talk about the proper technique for skating flies for steelhead, show the footage, but keep it as a general technique video, not as an advertisement for an already saturated (and overflowing) fishery that cannot handle any additional pressure. Call it "A Western Steelheading River." Plug your services with a statement such as, "If you would like more instruction on skating flies for steelhead, call Joe Blow guide services and spend a day on the river with Joe." It will also keep you in business when they close the Methow again.
  13. I must have missed something, but I didn't see a post that denigrated guides. Even the pokes at Jack were few and pretty benign by WFF standards. Finally, I think I'm the one who hijacked the apologies. I'm signing off on this one:D
  14. Sorry Roper, my biblical vocabulary seems to be lacking at the moment. Must have been all those years at parochial school and being forced to attend church on a daily basis..... I must be blocking. ;) I believe it was actually one of the many "parables" in the New Testament. You know, the Prodigal Son, etc., etc....

    It also could have been those ruler "whacks" from the nuns ..... I don't remember. :p

    Sageman, good points. I agree.
  15. wild steelhead are required to be released in all waters in this state unless otherwise specified in the regulations. from the terrain in the following pictures, i can promise you that these photos were taken on a stream that requires the release of wild steelhead and thus the law states that the fish can not be removed from the water.

    sure gives flyfishermen a bad name when we can not follow the regulations.

    and just so you know, i am not just pointing out jack, the other outfitters in e-burg are guilty of the same thng.

    given the intact adipose fins, all the follwing fish are wild and must be kept in the water:





    and dont worry. there are more.
  16. your right, check out
    [​IMG] 2005 Fish pic.htm
    what i would consider the two other major guide services in ellensburg, you will notice plenty of raised "unmarked" fish in their albums as well. and then ask yourself, is the survival of these fish jeopardized because of a quick photo? i think not, in most of the pictures from each different site you can see that the fish was just removed, with water dripping off of it. As in the photo above, you can see the net hasnt even had time to float away, that fish was likely out of the water for less than two seconds.

    And on a nother note, if you think the methow has too much pressure, dont go!
  17. Is that George Bush Sr. in the middle picture w/ Jack?:)
  18. You don't know when those fish were caught. They could have been before the law went into effect.
  20. there are posted in this year's photo album. they are posted in the current fishing report. they were obviously caught this year.

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