mike kinney and bob meiser join tfo

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by shawn k, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. Robert B. Meiser

    Robert B. Meiser New Member

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    Thanks for the good welcome guys ... I appreciate it.

    Hey Anti-Clause ... Looking forward to seeing you this Spring again, an yup... Put in some pretty long hours most days, but have never enjoyed life more then now ... Doing what we're doing.

    DRBfish ... We'll be up in Portland this weekend with my fishing buddy Popeye Arms Mike B. mostly just visiting and BS-ing.

    Brent <> Been thinking about that Oso Greaseliner ...

    ... She'd probably come with 10 extra Alder tip sections, that way the grand kids could also use em for roasting weenies around the campfire ... };^)...!!!

    Meiz
     
  2. Red Shed

    Red Shed "junkyard spey"

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    Hasn't Aaron done this very thing with some quite surprising results.



    Well Russ maybe the above is your definition. "High-end" is a subjective term and should most certainly be taken in the eye of the beholder. I know several people that think all plastic rods no matter who made them are junk.

    Maybe we should all remember that the angling world is a very diverse place with a great many varied opinions. Why can't there be room for all.

    Some of the best days I've ever had fishing were with a willow stick, 10' of mono, and a couple smashed flies I hauled around in my billfold.
     
  3. James Reales

    James Reales New Member

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    Mike I think your right we should have a blind rod test. I think flyfisherman magazine did that about ten years ago on trout rods. And St Croix came out on top.
     
  4. FT

    FT Active Member

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  5. fredaevans

    fredaevans Active Member

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    Well, would be a bit tough ... but wonder if this is something 'you' could pull off at the Sandy River Spey 'Clave? God Knows there were be a lot of different rods, manufactures, actions, etc., and etc., to try. (I can picture Mark B having a coronary when suggested. bawling: )
     
  6. Don Johnson

    Don Johnson Duke of Furl

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    Thanks FT; knowing that my bamboo rod collection or old Burkheimers are no longer of high end caliber will mean I will probably fish them more and with more reckless abandon. You can't really be serious in thinking that a high end rod can't be made from less technologically advanced materials, can you? State of the art and "high end" aren't exactly the same...are they?

    As for some of the commentary regarding St. Croix, like TFO, St. Croix does import some rods in their catalog from Asia, which many already know and is mentioned in their catalog and on their website. This importation is in their Triumph series of fly, spinning, casting and surf rods and the Reign series of fly rods. They are made overseas and go through some pretty stringent quality control checks by St. Croix before being released for sale, as it has been expained to me anyway. This has allowed them to keep up with demand and keep afforable price points in their catalog which in turn leads to more people being able to buy and enjoy the products and keeps the bottom line "healthy", so to speak.

    As for their "high end" (as you call it) rods, there are some proprietary components but the performance of these rods has as much or more to do with technology as it does with any other single thing. These technologies are ART (Advanced Reinforcing Technology) and IPC (Integrated PolyCurve) technology. How these apply to Spey rods may be a better question for the factory or for someone like Dana Sturn, whom many of you on this Forum already know from speypages and Spey Clave and is a member of the St. Croix Pro Staff along with Bob Jacklin, Bob Clouser and Bob Popovics, among others.

    Anyway, I originally started reading this thread because TFO picked up what I would call "heavy hitters", which is going to be good for everyone except TFO's competition. But with that said, if the mere presence of these gentlemen makes the competition pay more attention to the marketplace and maybe make a better widget, then it inadvertently has helped the competiton too. In the end though, the consumer is going to be the beneficiary, not only because there's a better TFO product but also because there's going to be more quality to products from other companies as well from which we get to choose.
     
  7. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    FT,

    Not a real easy definition there. For example, If we told our spouses (or anyone not in the flyfishing community) to go to the fly shop and buy us a "high end" rod, and here is the definition....

    "Rods made of high modulus graphite or boron-graphite with graphite scrim, many of which are mutli-modulus (using different graphites for different sections of the rod) to optimize performance of that particular rod section with smooth power progression down the blank without dead spots or places where the blank bends almost like a section or large portion of a section all at once, which also has good durability and is not tip heavy, nor does it have a very fast taper from butt to tip, which tends to result in a rod with a too thin tip."

    ...We would be in big trouble.


    I'm sure weight doesn't have much to do with performance, but after casting a heavier rod set up all day, then casting one half it's weigt is very nice.

    Justin
     
  8. FT

    FT Active Member

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    St. Croix apparently has figured out how to make and sell rods made in the US with US labor at lower prices than other US manufacturers. In fact, nearly all the rod series St. Croix produces are built in Wisconsin. TFO on the other hand has all of its rods built offshore in Asia.

    I simply ask once again, why can't TFO build rods in the US like St. Croix does?

    Perhaps St. Croix moved its lowest priced rods offshore to Asia and its cheap labor because it couldn't sell them cheaply enough to compete with companies like TFO when built with US labor. Just food for thought.
     
  9. Joe M.

    Joe M. another addict

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  10. FT

    FT Active Member

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    And what Mr. Pope says in this interview about having looked for a place to have the rods built so he could offer decent performance without a high or mid-range price ended with him having them built in Asia. This fits exactly with what I've said about TFO.

    He set out to have a rod offered to fly fishermen at a low price that had decent casting performance, unlike the cheap rods with poor casting performance that were on the market back in the 90's when he started having rods built for him. That is what he has done and why he has the rods built in Korea.
     
  11. fredaevans

    fredaevans Active Member

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    ...We would be in big trouble. Naaa, one or two calls at best.

    "Rods made of high modulus graphite or boron-graphite with graphite scrim, many of which are mutli-modulus (using different graphites for different sections of the rod) to optimize performance of that particular rod section with smooth power progression down the blank without dead spots or places where the blank bends almost like a section or large portion of a section all at once, which also has good durability and is not tip heavy, nor does it have a very fast taper from butt to tip, which tends to result in a rod with a too thin tip."

    Easy money. Buzz up Bob Meiser or Carry B and ask how MANY do you have that fit that description.:thumb:
     
  12. hawkeye

    hawkeye trout in a brook, you're about to get hooked...

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    Wow.

    I’m getting in a little late here, but I can’t believe most of what I just read. If you all don’t like TFO rods, don’t buy ‘em. Maybe they’ll disappear, as it seems most of you’d prefer. I personally can’t afford higher priced rods, if I want to maintain a fair stock of rods to match the different types of fishing I do – from spey to creek-crawlin’. Plus, in my 25+ years as a flyfisherman (from the fiberglass composites to IM8), I can honestly say that there have been very few times that I have picked up a high-end rod and said: Woah, that’s worth the bucks! The CND Specialist series being one of them, but that’s another story. As for St. Croix, the price point of a comparable light “trout” spey is $100+ more and the Avids are still more expensive that the TFO. Remember, I'll have to buy a line and reel for this rod, so 60 bucks or so and I get the line. And, by buying a TFO I’m still supporting Meiser and Kinney, both of whom I respect and who’s rods (Meiz) I wish I could afford (I’m saving, man!).

    As for the global economy, I’d echo alpinetrout’s comments: you’ll do more good buying your groceries from a farmer’s market or local coop, sell your petroleum-fueled transport, or at least skip on the LandRover before worrying about the fly-rod industry. And seriously, for the audience you are aiming these comments towards, potential TFO customers like me (who can’t afford to pick up a T & T every few months), it’s all a little insulting. I don't need to be swing a Sage to enjoy myself out on the water OR be serious about my sport.

    As a disclaimer, I do own one of the TiCr X rods – great rod if you like ‘em or need them to be extra fast. Though the ultra-fast arms race that is fly rod manufacturing hasn’t always fit my fishing needs, this thing is cannon…and a comparably affordable one at that.

    Any chance these Deer Creek proto rods will be at the Sandy River Clave?:hmmm:
     
  13. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
     
  14. jhorton

    jhorton New Member

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    Deer Creek Rods will definitely be at the Sandy River Clave.

    I beleive that Mssrs. Meiser and Kinney will also attend, along with Rick Pope and myself.

    Jay Horton
    Advisory Staff TFO
     
  15. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Hawkeye,

    It's OK to be late to this debate because it's gone on forever, with no end in sight. I agree with you that it borders on insulting when someone asks for rod advice and has a very limited budget and receives only, or mostly, recommendations for rods that are obviously beyond the asker's budget. It makes me wonder who the recommender is trying to help with advice like that, the poster seeking advice, or the recommender's own ego?

    Fortunately for us consumers, there are absolutely scads of good fly rods in the marketplace, even Spey rods. While so much is subjective, there are gems and dogs, and they seem to cut across the quality and price points. This provides many good choices for every budget level. My favorite Spey rods coincidently happen to be my most expensive and my cheapest ones. I'm lovin' the Spey life.

    That the Deer Creek series will be at the Sandy Clave is joyful news indeed. I do hope I will be available that weekend.

    Sg
     
  16. FT

    FT Active Member

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    Hawkeye,

    I currently own very few rods and certainly can't afford to buy a T&T, Sage, G. Loomis, Meiser, or other expensive high end rod every year (even though I own some of these), let alone every few weeks or months. I own 3 single-hand trout rods, one I've had for 21 years, one for 19 years, and one for 14 years (all of these were put together by me on high end blanks with high end components so I could have what I wanted in guides, reel seats, thread color, and cork quality). I also own three 2-hand rods, one I've had for 10 years, one for 3 years, and one for 2 years (one of these was put together by me on an expensive blank, the other 2 are factory rods). All are or were high end rods when I acquired them and each required me to save for a while to get it. I plan on using them for many more years and will add another 2-hander this summer or fall to my quiver.

    In full disclosure, I've sold one high end single-hander and 2 high end 2-handers in the last two years because I wasn't using them very much if at all and prefered to see them go to someone who would put them to use. I've also given away a few very good rods to kids when their parents couldn't afford to get them a decent rod.

    Salmo_G,

    I wasn't recommending any rod to anyone. I was simply pointing out that the cheaper 2-hand rods are not the equal of the expensive ones. I didn't even say they don't cast OK, just that they don't cast as well as the expensive ones. Yellowstone Angler did comarisons of different 5 wt and different 8 wt single-hand rods (available on their website) that points the same thing out with the results of these comparisons. However, if someone only has enough to get a cheaper rod, TFO, ECHO, or Redington will provide him with a decent casting rod at a lower price. By the same token, if someone is looking for high performance in a rod, the cheaper ones won't provide it despite the hype.
     
  17. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    FT,

    I don't believe I singled you out in this vein, but if you feel you were, then I guess that's how you feel. I was commenting generically to Hawkeye in regards to the advice numerous posters seek, and then seem to receive recommendations for nearly everything except what they requested. Sometimes that's inevitable, when there is no, say, $50 complete rod/reel/line solution to a novice's gear and budget situation. Usually, tho, there are many potential rods at lower price points that easily fill an angler's needs. So far, I haven't encountered anyone seeking a high performance rod on a limited budget. Nor have I heard anyone claim that cheap rods are equal to expensive rods. However, many inexpensive rods perform equally well as expensive rods for average casters. And no high end rod ever turned a duffer into an expert caster. Consequently, I think it's disingenious, or ego serving, of those who recommend expensive gear to budget-constrained anglers when there are many viable selections available in today's marketplace.

    I'm glad you're able to provide the community service of giving very good rods to kids whose parents cannot provide them a decent rod. Pardon my sarcasm, but it would be such a shame for children to have to learn to cast and fish on average rods. Nonetheless, good on ya'. Seriously.

    Sincerely,

    Salmo g.
     

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