Montana Black Spot?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by HogWrangler, Mar 10, 2006.

  1. HogWrangler Member

    Posts: 332
    Stanwood WA
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    I have this amazing book on Washington lakes that list even the smallest and most alpine of lakes in the state, and after a brief description of the lake is states what species of fish live in the lake. There are a very small few that list MBS, which is shown to be Montana Black Spot. I typed it in on google image and nothing at all close to a fish appeared. This book was made in the early 70s so I don't know if that fish has a different name now or what the case is. Any body know what it is? Thanks to every one who has commented on my previous threads, this website is amazing.
  2. mr trout Trevor Hutton

    Posts: 545
    Yakima, WA, USA.
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    According to WDFW, it is a cutthroat subspecies. I'll do some more sleuthing and get back if I find more.
  3. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Posts: 7,136
    Not sure
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    That's what west slope cutts used to be called.

    K
  4. mr trout Trevor Hutton

    Posts: 545
    Yakima, WA, USA.
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    Looks like Ken is right on. I just stole this little blurb from some website...

    There are two subspecies of Cutthroat Trout, the Coastal Cutthroat Trout (Truite fardée côtière), Oncorhynchus clarkii clarkii (Richardson, 1836), and the West-slope Cutthroat Trout (Truite fardée du flanc de l'ouest), Oncorhynchus clarkii lewisi Suckley, 1874. The subspecies of specimens introduced to the NCR is unknown. Other common names for the Coastal Cutthroat Trout include Red-throated Trout, Clark's Trout, Sea Trout, Short-tailed Trout, Black- spotted Trout and Harvest Trout and for the West-slope Cutthroat Trout include Red-throated Trout, Lake Trout, Short Tailed Trout, Native Trout, Black-spotted Trout, Montana Blackspot and Yellowstone Cutthroat Trout. This species was formerly placed in the genus Salmo.
  5. HogWrangler Member

    Posts: 332
    Stanwood WA
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    WOW! you guys know your stuff, almost a hundred veiws so far and you guys are the only two to reply. Very nice, and thanks for clearing that up!
  6. mr trout Trevor Hutton

    Posts: 545
    Yakima, WA, USA.
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    I don't know much, I just know where to look and who does know. ;)
  7. Keith Hixson Active Member

    Posts: 1,507
    College Place, Washington
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    Never heard of cutthroat being called lake trout. I thought that was reserved for the Mackinaw.
    Amazing the information you can get here.

    K.
  8. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,123
    White City, Oregon, USA.
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    Interesting to see they included "Sea Trout" in that list. That will confuse the Brit's as that's what they call 'sea run brown trout.'
  9. MrP Member

    Posts: 499
    Bothell, WA
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    It's been a long time since I caught MBS in a remote E WA lake. They look like Cutthroat that have had the back third of their bodies lightly dipped in a bucket of spots.
  10. Kyle Smith Active Member

    Posts: 2,004
    Bozeman, MT
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    So, besides the obvious, what's the greenback? In the Montana regs, they actually show the difference between what they call a West slope, and a Yellowstone cutthroat. One other thing: Why would they call a subspecies that is found pretty much exclusively East of the continental divide "Westslope"???
  11. catdaddy027 Banned or Parked

    Posts: 33
    Vancouver, WA
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    coolkyle...
    I found this on another site and thought it was pretty cool. Will clear up alot of questions about cutties. It runs about half an hour, so settle in...
    http//www.idahoafs.org/FINAL_TROUT_DVD.mpg
  12. Preston Active Member

    Posts: 2,478
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    Robert Behnke recognizes fourteen subspecies of cutthroat trout (a couple of which have become extinct in relatively recent times). The coastal cutthroat (Oncorhynchus clarki clarki) is the apparent progenitor of the other subspecies which, having become geographically isolated in the past, began to diverge genetically. He breaks them down into four major groups:

    Lahontan cutthroats: O.c. henshawi, the Lahontan cutthroat, O.c. seleniris, the Paiute cutthroat, O.c. alvordensis (extinct), the Alvord basin cutthroat, and two which have not yet been given subspecific names, the Whitehorse Basin and Humboldt cutthroats.

    Yellowstone cutthroats: O.c. pleuriticus, the Colorado River cutthroat, O.c. stomias, the the greenback cutthroat, O.c. macdonaldi (extinct), the yellowfin cutthroat, O.c. virginalis, the Rio Grande cutthroat, O.c. utah, the Bonneville cutthroat, O.c. behnkei, the Snake River finespotted cutthroat, and O.c.bouvieri, the Yellowstone cutthroat.

    Coastal cutthroats and Westslope cutthroats: Because they have much larger ranges with many localized populations, O.c. clarki, the coastal cutthroat and O.c. lewisi, the westslope cutthroat are given their own separate groups.
  13. alpinetrout Banned or Parked

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    Hiding in your closet
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    To say that westslopes are found primarily east of the continental divide is not accurate. They are native to both sides of the divide, including all of Montana west of the divide, a large portion of Idaho, and isolated pockets in Oregon and the east slope of the Cascades in Washington. Westslopes originally had the greatest range of any cutthroat subspecies. As for the name, it was originally applied to the trout discovered in the Flathead-Clark Fork drainages and it was only later that the cutthroat from the upper Missouri River were identified as being the same subspecies.
  14. Preston Active Member

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    The westslope cutthroat is called westslope because its major populations are found on the west slope of the Rocky Mountains. When it comes to common names, don't expect any sort of consistency or even logic. The anadromous form of the coastal cutthroat, most commonly called "sea-run cutthroat", is also known as "harvest trout" (because of the time it returns to some rivers) and "blueback", a name which it seems to share with a number of other species, such as sockeye salmon. Captain (later General) George B. McLellan reported catching "salmon-trout" in Lake Keechelus while surveying a route over the Cascades and, since the party apparently didn't include a biologist, we'll probably never know what they actually were.
  15. jackchinook Member

    Posts: 314
    Winthrop, WA
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    I've actually heard that 'Montana Black Spots' were primarily Yellowstone cutthroat subspecies (Oncorhynchus clarki bouvieri), while the native trout between the Cascade Crest and the Rocky Divide are primarily westslope cutts (O. c. lewisi). Though, through hibridization, these became somewhat mixed in certain area and the use of colloquial names throughout the past is not the best method of tracking the lineages. At one time, there were many lakes in WA that were stocked with Yellowstone Cutts. Probably since they were seem to grow to large sizes in Lk Yellowstone. Now, in the spirit of trying to keep things as native as possible, the cutts that stocked east of the mountains are Twin Lakes (near Lk Wenatchee) stock cuttthroats, while those stocked on the westside are Coastals (O. c. clarki). Now, it is my understanding that you've got to find a lake where there are naturally reproducing yellowstone cutts where no subsequent stockinig has taken place to actually catch them around here.

    Brian Curtis of the Highlakers/Trailblazers is very well informed about this subject and may chime in.

    A great read, if you're into this sort of thing, is Cutthroat, Native Trout of the West, by Pat Trotter. Benke is used as a source for much of the book and it's very easy to read. Full of science but not too technical that you can't read through it in a few days. Particularly interesting is the commentary about the geography of the basins and their relationships to the glaciers and the distribution of the different subspecies and how we theorize that they all emerged. Good stuff.
  16. Hoglipstick tailing looped

    Posts: 108
    B.I., WA and Superior, MT.
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    Preston, Jackchinook;
    Any mention of what strain catagory the Crescenti falls into?
  17. jackchinook Member

    Posts: 314
    Winthrop, WA
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    Great question that borders on thread hijack due to the interesting beast that is Lake Crescent! I don't know what the latest taxonomy freaks say but I'd bet they're officially considered coastals (O. clarki clarki). Mainly because they're surrounded by populations of coastal cutts. However, I do recall reading some historical accounts where biologists considered the cutts in Lake Crescent and Lake Sutherland as seperate subspecies. Surely the population arose from the same population of coastals in Lk Sutherland prior to the landslide that geographically isolated Sutherland from Crescent which landlocked the Crescent population and began the divergence of the formerly homogenous population (including leading to the Beardslee's) . The prior situation allowed gene flow from anadromous populations via Sutherland Creek (both rainbows/steelhead and cutthroat).

    I don't know if their phenotypic differences warrant a serparate subspecies or not. Perhaps someone knows the latest on that. Remember, of course, that lines between subspecies levels and populations are very grey. Bull trout/Dolly Varden, Greenback cutthroat/Colorado River cutthroats, etc. Dfferentiating between them takes meristic measurements/dissection and usually can't be done with the naked eye by the angler....I mean, really, what is a sub-species and what is a distinct population? All the sub-species I know of can interbreed and produce viable, fertile offspring. The key is to realize that the populations are super dynamic and always changing and these are methods for us to conveniently package these fish/populations into our clean little boxes for management's sake.
  18. Brian Curtis Member

    Posts: 129
    Silverdale, WA, USA.
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    jackchinook is correct. The Montana Black Spot, as mentioned in Lakes of Washington, is the Yellowstone cutthroat. Some references, most notably Smith and Behnke, reference black spotted trout as a name for westslope cutthroat. But the references in the book HogWrangler is referring to are Yellowstones. You must have the third edition that was printed in 1973. It was actually written in the late fifites, and that is when those fish species references date from so be sure to take them for what they are worth.

    Brian
  19. Kyle Smith Active Member

    Posts: 2,004
    Bozeman, MT
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    I wasn't saying that, I was wondering why people were grouping Yellowstone cutts with Westslope cutts.
  20. TheShadKing Will Fish For Food

    Posts: 261
    Bellevue, WA
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    thanks guys, this answered a bunch of questions that I've always wondered
    about!


    Rolland