Moving on with life: the Bush saga continues

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by TomB, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. ray helaers

    ray helaers New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    .
    Actually, GWB's ideology of a state/business/church alliance, super-patriotism characterized by an intolerance of opposition, xenophopia, and perpetual war are pretty close to an operational definiton of facsism. Thre's more to fascism than genocide.

    And for your information, Hitler was the elected leader of a democratic republic. What do you suppose the majority of Germans were told and believed about the invasions of Poland and France? Do you suppose that many of them believed those actions were regrettable but necessary to protect the national interest? Do you suppose they believed that no country should have veto power over issues of German security? Do you suppose that "shock and awe" are English for Blitzkrieg?

    I am very mindful that half the country doesn't agree with me. I just wish you were too. Do you really believe you "rule" because you have a 1% majority?
     
  2. David Holmes

    David Holmes Formerly known as "capmblade"

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2004
    Messages:
    590
    Media:
    21
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Snoqualmie, WA, USA.
    Home Page:
    Is the mis-spelling of "fascist" and "fascism" some cool new trend that I don't know about? Or perhaps "facsism" is a new word that means whatever you want it to mean? In this context, the mispelling probably signifies only your own emotional turmoil , so one should ignore the ludicrous suggestion that the current administration, re-elected by over 50 million citizens, is equivalent to any real example of a fascist state.

    This is a democracy - that means the winner "rules" for four years. Were you hoping for something else? Are you proposing that the educated elite (ha) should simply choose a leader for the rest of the people?

    Also, I made no statement or endorsement in my observation that the title post was, in effect, an unintended oxymoron. I am a card-carrying Democrat, so HAH.

    Meta-points:

    1. If a candidate cannot mobilize voters to get them elected, then he has no business running the country. That fact is an elegant byproduct of democracy.

    2. One should be reminded that the Democratic party has been on the decline for 50 YEARS. If it weren't for Ross Perot, we would not have won the presidency since Carter. The Party is out of touch with the working class (once their main constituents) and Flyover America. The party will likely continue to decline in the future.

    This was the Democratic Party's best chance to get the White House and they blew it.
     
  3. ray helaers

    ray helaers New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    .
    Actually I would posit that winners of elections in democracies are given a mandate to govern, not rule, particularly not with a 1% majority. Bi-partisanship is not a matter of the minority rolling over; it requires compromize on the part of the majority. And geez, what's your trip with spelling? I got it right on the second try for pity's sake.

    I notice you didn't attempt to answer or even address my statements suggesting unfortunate historical parallels with the current direction of the country. I understand they are provocative and require more thought than making fun of typos.

    As far as your analysis of the decline of the democratic party, while in general you may be correct, your facts are wrong and your case is rather overstated. 50 years ago was 1954. The democrats still had ahead of them pretty close to uninterupted control of both houses of congress until 1994 (with much more convincing majorities than the republicans have mustered since). We'll have to see if the republicans can match that. As far as the white house goes, while it's true that Bill Clinton was never able to win a majority of votes, he won two convincing pluralities, and in 1996 took very close to 50% (1% less than GW's "convincing" win this week), with the threat of impeachment looming. In the last four election cycles, the republican presidential candidate has earned the following percentages of popular vote: 1992 39% (Bush I, the lowest percentage for an incumbent ever); 1996 40% (Dole); 2000 49% (Bush II); 2004 51% (Bush II, while better than Clinton's reelection number, still low historically for a reelection, and Clinton did beat his republican challenger by close to 10 points). I wouldn't call this trend a ringing mandate to "rule," or a harbinger of dynasty.

    I'm not trying to suggest the democratic party isn't in some trouble, but reports of its death are greatly exagerated. I'm sorry if I spelled anything wrong; it would undoubtedly prove you right.
     
  4. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Messages:
    22,424
    Media:
    29
    Likes Received:
    1,942
    Location:
    In a comfortable chair
    Well I say there is no use worring about it and life as we know it will go on. This isn't the end of the world or no where close to it. I just try to go with the flow and try to keep out of some of this political junk.

    It seems that no matter what we all attempt to bitch about that the Government will just do as they please as they are the ones in charge. I'm not complaing about anything except that it don't do any good to cry over what is done or however they will attempt to screw us over in the next four years.


    So I guess that this is about the only way to have any fun anymore ptyd .

    Jim bawling:
     
  5. Calvin1

    Calvin1 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    617
    Media:
    20
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Capmblade,

    I agree with your meta-points. I find it discouraging that the Democratic party has foregone its base. The Republicans have returned to their base and added a new one, the religous right.

    I'm loathe to admit it, but I really believe that the Democratic party needs to work on their political machine. There is no equivalent on the Democratic side to the Karl Rove propaganda machine. I find it interesting that Kerry made his greatest strides in this campaign when they finally brought the political stalwarts like James Carville and Joe Lockhart on board. Rather than packing up their tents right now, hopefully they'll keep these mechanisms in place and begin grooming a candidate for the next election. I believe it has been demonstrated by both parties that the lifetime achievement award candidate is rarely successful. What is need is a candidate who will energize the electorate.

    Lifetime Achievement Award Candidates:

    1. John Kerry
    2. Bob Dole
    3. Dick Gephardt (though never nominated)
    4. Gerald Ford

    Just my ramblings.

    Calvin
     
  6. David Holmes

    David Holmes Formerly known as "capmblade"

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2004
    Messages:
    590
    Media:
    21
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Snoqualmie, WA, USA.
    Home Page:
    This is equivalent to saying "well my party lost, but the winners should still enact my party's agenda!" Why? What for? To what purpose? There are plenty of checks and balances in the system as it is (the 60 votes required by the Senate) for example. The democrats lost. Bush has even less reason to moderate his already extreme agenda than he did in 2000.

    I didn't go there on purpose. I couldn't write what I really wanted to say without it seeming heavy-handed.

    The well-respected Economist magazine endorse Kerry for president. Here is their post-mortem analysis of the Democratic party.

    http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3353402

    If anything, they are being optimistic of its future -- IMO in another 10 years there will be only handful of Democratic senators, congressmen and governors.

    This is exactly why the D party is in trouble -- it still thinks it is in power. It still thinks it is the People's Party and it doesn't see that its days are numbered. It is about to become the ultimate tool: an irrelevant foil for the Republicans to rally their troops against.
     
  7. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Messages:
    4,073
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    785
    Location:
    Olympic Peninsula
    Home Page:
    capmblade:

    What do you think America will be like with a one party system if the two party system is this screwed up? My impression is that both the Democrats and Republicans are so fixated on their own respective view of things, and their own agendas, that in their minds a single party America would be some kind of heaven,( as long as it was their own party that remained.)

    I think we need an overhaul of the whole damned deal. Any party's "members" should be deeply disturbed by the split within America today, as evidenced buy a record turn out of voters and such a narrowly decided result. The way you talk about victory and George Bush reminds me of coyotes doing a death dance over a kill.
     
  8. Ken Hunter

    Ken Hunter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Shoreline, Wa, USA.
    I'll ask the question again. What are you going to do now?

    I'm sure everything said here is true but you still need to find a way to move forward. Just wait till next time and we'll get them then means nothing gets done.

    It seems as though we should spend more time working on good things for fishing and less time with the nasty part of politics. A good way to get people off topic politically is to campain to the extreems and hope to split the middle in your favor. This really does get people to stop thinking and start calling each other names. Again nothing gets done.

    I'm not sure what to do myself but forming non political groups is one way to take party politics out of the equation. I know a lot of people on both sides of any nasty issue end up saying a lot of bad things, but two wrongs don't make a right and again nothing gets done.

    Ken
     
  9. ray helaers

    ray helaers New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    .
    Well, I didn't say that anybody should do anything. I said that bi-partisanship requires compromize on the part of the majority. That's not the "equivalent" of anything, it's just english. They can do whatever they want (and I'm sure they will), but if they're unwilling to compromise then they're not bi-partisan. Why should they? To what purpose? I don't know, patriotism, the good of the nation, the recognition that they should govern for the whole country, including a 49% minority, not just the people that voted for them? (Like the Democrats tended to do, and the republicans used to do, by the way; witness Nixon's EPA, Carter's deregulation, and Clinton's welfare reform.) But whatever, I just like to listen to myself; I'm as sure as you are that you're 100% right.

    And I did not say or imply that the Democrats still rule (one of the simplifying advantages of always being right about everything is that you don't have to bother actually listening to or reading what anyone else has to say.) I said they're not dead yet. Yes they're down, but not out, and nothing in recent trends should lead anybvody to believe otherwise. All the well respected journals said the republicans were dying in 96 when Dole got 40% (and I didn't believe them then either).

    And give me a break with The Economist! Yeah, that's an objective source. The Daily Worker promises the brotherhood of man, right around the corner. I'm sure the Wall Street Journal would like to believe they don't have to worry about the democrats anymore either, and they're well respected too!

    But accept my white flag. You're way too smart for me.
     
  10. David Holmes

    David Holmes Formerly known as "capmblade"

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2004
    Messages:
    590
    Media:
    21
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Snoqualmie, WA, USA.
    Home Page:
    Ha ha!. That's clever.

    2008: Hillary vs Jeb. Can you see it?
     
  11. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Messages:
    4,073
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    785
    Location:
    Olympic Peninsula
    Home Page:
    KEN:

    Very well said. And so we do have to think of tomorrow, and what we will do today to make a positive difference.

    I will continue to work for the restoration of wild fish, Salmonids and especially Wild Steelhead here. It is not that there aren't other worthy species, because there are and most of them are not sporting species. I just find it works better for me to focus on things this way.

    I do wonder where Trout Unlimited will be in the time ahead. They are spending a fortune on the Deleware River to get flows and to champion protections for the "wild trout" of the Deleware River, when in fact these are not indigenous fish to that river system. They were planted, by the railroad company, to entice travelers to take the trains up to the Catskill Mountains to go fishing on the weekends and summers. True, that was a long time ago, and many of the fish in the Deleware are resident,feral trout now. Especially the Rainbows of the West Branch Deleware.

    But it just does not make sense to me that America's great "voice for cold water conservation and wild trout"would place such emphasis and effort on what is ostensibly a playground, while it apparantly ignores the
    precipitous decline of wild salmoinids here, especially the wild steelhead of western Washington's coastal rivers.

    So I will continue to write letters to managers, politicians, editors, businesses etc. You just cant stop. Not ever. It's a life's work. And no, thank you; I dont need another calendar or sheet of address labels!
     
  12. clockwork

    clockwork New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    318
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    bothell township
    This was the Democratic Party's best chance to get the White House and they blew it.[/QUOTE]

    id say the democrats' best chance was in 2000 when we won both the popular and electoral but were prevented by the court system from counting the rest of the votes. i was a much bigger Gore fan than i was Kerry but still.

    of course Bush is the countries' choice when morality is concerned right? i suppose he thought god demanded of him the he file suit to circumvent democracy. Oh wait, according to Bush, its our 'enemies' that "HATE DEMOCRACY." and its perfectly moral to attack nations unprovoked as long as they are muslim and not christian.

    the choice is very disappointing. ive decided to put more emphasis on local politics. where it matters more anyways. plus at least i know the majority of washingtonians are smarter than i can say for most of the midwest and south. -ryan
     
  13. bugnuts

    bugnuts Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    U.P., WA
    Man...you liberals are precious. Here I thought all the bitching and whining over the last few months was an attempt to persuade those undecided, unenlightened voters to support Kerry, but now I see that the bashing goes on uninterrupted by such a silly thing as the will of the majority of the people. Thank goodness we have you to keep us informed on all that is wrong in the minds of those citizens because you know better than they do.

    The beauty of the First Amendment is that you have a fundamental constitutional right to say whatever you want, but that no one is required to listen. :thumb:
     
  14. clockwork

    clockwork New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    318
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    bothell township
    you thought the whining would stop?! what are you new? let the bashing and bitching continue!
     
  15. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Messages:
    667
    Media:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA, USA.
    I guess that means President Bush can run again in 2008 if he didn't really win in 2000! :thumb:
     
  16. Kalm

    Kalm Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    446
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cheney, The Dry Side
    It's been mentioned before that both parties are slaves to the same master. Say what you want about Michael Moore but most would agree he's right in stating the difference between Republicans and Dems is they both bend you over, the dems just make you feel good about it. But despite party similarities and both sides having a "big tent", the last four years have taught us that individuals or small groups within the party (e.g. neo-cons) can make earth shattering decisions.

    This election was no mandate. Like everything else in our culture, it boils down to superior marketing. The Republicans represent the party everyone is supposed to be. Moral and self reliant. But it seems like most are christian in lip-service only, and deep down identify more with the KY Jelly Wrestling scene from Old School than W's hard core piousness and bible study. And who doesn't want to latch on to the great American dream that you've achieved your standing in life exclusively through your own hard work, when in reality, very few, if any of us could have made it without big government. Each side's ideas are unproven, especially when it comes to economics, the Republican's message just sold better.

    Everyone talked about the anti-bush vote, including many liberals like myself who were discouraged by Kerry's mediocrity but knew this time getting Bush out of office trumped even considering a protest vote for Nader. But the more I think about it, the more it seems this vote was really about siding with the guys who have marketed the best message. Kerry was branded a liberal, and as we all know, nobody wants to side with one of those. Liberal =LOSER.

    This isn't sour grapes on my part. Just observations. Congrats to the Republicans and their marketing department, and as somebody already stated, the other side better improve it's machine.
     
  17. Zen Piscator

    Zen Piscator Supporting wild steelhead, gravel to gravel.

    Joined:
    May 7, 2004
    Messages:
    3,076
    Media:
    551
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Missoula, MT
    Home Page:
    Peter please read,
    Fox news is about as fair balanced as a fight between Carrot Top and The Rock. For what reason do you view "liberals" as bad, or wrong. Open your eyes, please. It seems that many conservatives that are in office are concerned more about money than any other issue. It makes perfect since once you actually dig a little deeper and find out how much they spend. $20,000= 1 smart bomb, smallest kind they make. Ok, so lets take the budget for 50 of those bombs, and put in inner city schools. So, the schools these kids have to go to would actually be comparable to what middle class people have. Or, lets put that million dollars saved and toss it into Columbia basin fish restoration. We could restore all the Deschutes tribs that are so vital for their steelhead and nearly non-existent salmon barley holding on. Wouldn't that be great? But, it seems like some in office have a different idea of how things go. You could kill a whole load of Iraqi people with those 50 bombs. Hey, even women and children if you get lucky. 100,000 have fallen already, what’s 1,000 more. They are just all religious extremists right? They stand by the word of Ala. They govern their life according to their religion. Hm, sounds not so different from some of us... The thing that really irks me, is that there are hundreds upon hundreds of programs like the smart bombs that would be totally fine with a million $ taken from them. We could actually improve healthcare, or if we get real lucky, save some fish, maybe even a whole bunch. Im not ragging against all conservatives here, im sure not all care so much about war and killing. Conservative politicians scare me a lot. Right now im not sure how much different the democrats would be from the republicans, it seems like they are trying to become almost conservative in some of their views, its depressing. This is one of many reasons I have trouble accepting what is going on in Washington dc right now. It is just plain wrong. Did Jesus call for senseless killing in his bible? I don’t seem to remember that part. If bush is doing god's bidding right now, he must have misunderstood. ALOT.

    Peace,
    Andy
     
  18. Whitey

    Whitey Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    991
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    181
    Location:
    Far side of the moon
    I've figured out why I'm so upset. Its because I have no voice. I'm in the middle, With the leftist peta freaks and gaywads on one side, the bible thumping goodie twoshoes on the other. What happened to being a moderate? The democratic party is lost. So far left, that my dad, I life long teamster(27yrs at Rainier beer) voted Bush. WTF???

    YT :beathead:
     
  19. Ken Hunter

    Ken Hunter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Shoreline, Wa, USA.
    Recently I found myself looking for the right thing to do. At that time I did not belong to any group. Each time I looked into the activities of a group I was turned off by political bias and lack of real action. In addition these groups seemed to want to change the world instead of being focused on an achievable goal.

    In the end I joined WSC. They seemed to have everything I wanted.

    For everyone interested in fishing, I hope they can find something constructive to do besides lip service. Personally I've spent too much time doing nothing. Its time for me to be more involved but in a constructive way.

    Ken
     
  20. o mykiss

    o mykiss Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2001
    Messages:
    1,328
    Likes Received:
    197
    Location:
    .
    Hey YT - as Flavor Flav once said "don't believe the hype." If you think the Demos are "so far left," you're being as snowed by the Karl Rove propaganda machine as apparently so many who voted for W this year have been. Rove and guys like Coho, Chadk, Cactus, Bugnuts and Bright Rivers like to frame the Demos as concerned only about ramming through gay marriage and women's unfettered right to a late term "partial birth abortions." Guess what, fellas, that's not what I'm focused on and it's not what the vast majority of Demos are focused on. I feel pretty confident that those issues were not even remotely on the minds of the vast majority of the 50 million people who voted for Kerry a few days ago, and anyone suggests that a Kerry-Edwards administration would have focused on them is blowing smoke. There are a lot of Republicans who know that this tarring of the Democratic Party as far left wackos is a bunch of bullshit propaganda, but they have many willing listeners so they keep it up. Let's face it, this process of demonization has been incredibly effective with a huge swath of the electorate that by and large isn't really willing to take a hard look at the real issues. Mean time, keep in mind that things we take for granted like Social Security, Medicare, the right of unions to organize, civil rights, workplace health and safety, environmental regulation and a long list of other mainstream ideas were birthed, by and large, by Democrats. And even though a lot of Republicans want people to believe that a Democrat's religiosity is somehow inferior to their own, don't believe it. The establishment clause of the First Amendment is a 200+ year old reminder of a proud American belief that a person can believe in God and a secular society at the same time.
     

Share This Page