Moving on with life: the Bush saga continues

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by TomB, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. Kalm

    Kalm Member

    Marginalizing the opposition by defining their positions as extreme is a tried and true tactic. Witness Kerry's voting record being considered the "most liberal in the senate". In truth that was a snapshot taken from '03 when he was campiagning and only voted a few key issues all of which were of a devisive nature. But it was amazing to watch how that one year snapshot was morphed to represent his entire history of voting. If you repeat "most liberal voting record in the senate last year", and then after a few days drop the "last year" part, all of a sudden everyone knows that the Kerry is the most liberal member of the senate. Hell, even "more liberal than Ted Kennedy." Some might refer to this tactic as a "half truth", some might refer to it as "lie". But wait, you said only Michael Moore behaves like that, not your guys.

    To your point about the difference between insulating office holders from dissent versus pundits: I agree, a candidate would be crazy to expose himself to criticism any more than he has to. But they should. Your response immediately attacks Kerry instead of defending Bush (another tried and true tactic), but the opinion remains that this administration has a less than grand reputation for open government and working with the press.

    This argument is about objectivity which is lacking on both sides of the debate. Your guy won using the above tactics and that's probably how the dem's need to start operating, but it by no means validates the credibility of your arguments or the truth. A slightly greater amount of people believed your side is all. But when you start defending the likes of Hannity et al. for the their non-bias, you tend to bring your own objectivity into question as well.
  2. clockwork

    clockwork New Member

    Ive never heard MM denounce capitalism. I have heard him criticize the business practices of major corporations but never capitalism itself. he accused the administration in his movie and on paper of attempting to spread capitalism not democracy and freedom. that says nothing of his stance on capitalism in and of itself.

    time and again i hear Bush supporters denounce MM's extreme allegations and assertions(based on his own claimed facts) as extreme and as "lies" however, I have never seen or heard of anyone who has actually proved him wrong. not you nor the administration. and id think that if they were lies, they'd want to do something to cover it up since what he alleges is pretty sinister. MM is very clever in that he usually doesn't make outright allegations, he often simply produces a series of facts, history, instances and circumstances in a way that lead the viewer to a presupposed conclusion.

    not only has noone proved him wrong, noone can even say what he's wrong about. yet you say he is easily disproven. WTF?

    [and FWIW, it's spelled PUNDIT.]

    i wouldnt want to have a debate against someone on the radio especially when they control the buttons as Kalm says, i mean, have you ever wondered why they never lose an argument? its called a volume button and having the ability to talk over them. have you ever heard someone try to argue with Tom Likas?! -ryan

  3. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

    Of course both sides were telling only the side that made them look good. It was a political campaign for crying out loud!

    But I guess that's the difference between you and me. I realize that political campaigns of all ideologies emphasize their guys strong points and point out the other sides week points. You seem to think that only the "other" side does it! :rolleyes:

    This ridiculous notion that the Democrats "always" play nice and the Republicans are "big meanies" is laughable. :rofl: Both sides have been playing hardball for as long as I can remember, as they should. Perhaps you've never seen the old "Daisy" commercial run by LBJ in 1964?

    Where did I EVER say Hannity (who I seldom listen to, by the way) was non-biased? :D Hannity himself says he is partisan. Every political pundit (is that better?) is biased, some just refuse to admit it.

    It seems that you are using the old tactic of putting words in my mouth!
  4. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

    Why should the Bush Administration try to "cover it up" what Michael Moore :clown: alledges? He is one of the best vote getters the Republicans have! Polls taken prior to the election showed that of the people who viewed his movie, it made more people decide to vote FOR President Bush than to vote for John Kerry. :thumb:

    As the old saying goes: When the opposition is self-destructing; get out of the way!

    FWIW, sentences start with the first letter of the first word CAPITALIZED! :ray1:
  5. Bright Rivers

    Bright Rivers Member

    Some Free Advice . . .

    Cactus took the words right out of my mouth.

    Let me give you some free advice: Take back your party from the New York columnists, the eccentric billionaires, the bored rock stars, and the pathetic Hollywood celebrities. When I hear Democrats defending a buffoon like Michael Moore, I can't help but smile as I think about what the future holds. For as long as Michael Moore, Al Franken, Barbara Streisand, and Nancy Pelosi are the face of the Democratic party, the future looks bright for the GOP.

    Kalm, you offered me a seat on your bi-partisan committee, so listen to me for a just a moment, because your party needs clear thinkers like you (wrong, but at least clear). And lest you think I am just taking cheap shots at your party when it's down, I'll confess that my party has been guilty of the same mistakes yours is currently making, and the results were similar.

    Flashback fifteen or so years ago to the late '80s. Ralph Reed mobilized the religious right and took control of the Republican party. The face of our party was people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Alan Keyes, and Pat Buchanan. The party was energized, temporarily, but the real effect was to leave moderate Republicans feeling left out of the loop. The party was split between religious conservatives and secular conservatives. Enter Ross Perot, whose 1992 Presidential campaign attracted secular conservatives like moths to a flame (earning 19% of the vote), and allowed Bill Clinton to take the White House with only 45% of the popular vote.

    That is where the Democrats will be in 2008 if they can't read the writing on the wall. The so-called "red states" are populated by millions of proud Democrats who could have easily turned the tide for the Dems on November 2nd, but they have been disenfranchised by the radical social liberalism that has taken over the party. They are democrats in the mold of Harry Truman and John F. Kennedy, and their politics, while genuinely liberal, does not even resemble the politics of Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, and Nancy Pelosi. And if you can't figure out a way to make room for these blue collar mid-west & southern Democrats in your party, then your party will continue to lose seats in both houses of Congress, and will need more than mercenary workers and provisional ballots to claim the White House.

    Just some friendly advice. Frankly, I'd prefer you dismiss it. In fact, I'm counting on it. And that is just fine with me. :cool:
  6. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long


    "Kerry branded a liberal" case you havent seen the light, protect your eyes, this may come as a sudden jolt, HE IS A LIBERAL!
    the Liberal Michael Moore stated ....."Dems make you feel good about it"....? Talk about "marketing", that's one for the record. As I see it, the precise "marketing magic" is really in the truth. The truth or should I say near truth, or Clinton-esqe re-defined truth or the truth as "Nixon" visioned it or the truth as to how "we" perceive......and on and on......! :beathead:
    Yep, I agree it's all marketing......, :thumb: partys to the first part as did partys of the second part, each ptyd having their "slant" and both had their "spin"....., now, place your right hand on a, now there's a concept, conceived by 17th century revolutionaries) "do you solemnly swear to tell the the whole truth (according to ..?) yadda yadda yadda, so help you God" and the always an emphatic "YES or I do". This is where the truth comes out......, where the rubber meets the road... mmmmmmmmmmmm? :beer2:
    I personally think it's "elect"rical in nature....positive and negative. There has to be a "flow", without one, the other is "dead". Each party feels their side is the "+" and not the "-", or is it....vice versa,..... does positive always flow to the negative,.... however and regardless, the two are ineffective without each other.
    The catalyst that sets the standard is the Constitution, and all subsequent documents accordingly, more commonly referred to as the "Law of the Land". The conductor is the s"elect"ion process, the campaign (, ie *"an operation undertaken, as by means of propaganda to attain some political...." ) is the current. So there you have it. (Hence the term, "heated up", too much current for the conductor, need of a bigger conductor (wire?, government..?)). Some may think/feel we have just encountered a "shocking" outcome, and duly felt on all sides, not just GOP or Dems. :ray1:
    Marketing you say. If the "truth" (aka..refined definition) of the matter was really known, really known, down deep, I mean really down deep, I would dare say the majority of American registered voters truthfully cast their "conscience". So, where in God's name did all this "new found conscience" come from? Must be the (subliminal) marketing, huh? OBTW, I'd bet those were capitalistic, very real ad agencies, deviously cowering, wringing their hands, smirking at each other, antsy, anticipating the chance $$$ of another "big" campaign on the road to democracy. Moore of that "$flowwww". This is good for business, I'm sure Michael Moore made a buck or two, the flowwww, the "current"-see, if you will, all part of the process, those $200k wage earners so explicitly threatened by the very marketing scheme doing the marketing, God!, I'm getting a migrane.... bawling:
    What appeared to be shocking to the GOP are the gains in the Congress. This has to be an overload and probably will re-set itself in 2006. However, in the meantime, "engineering" is investigating the circuitry for malfunctions, subsequent transformers to be inspected, reset or replaced. Your patience is appreciated. Thats the beauty of the catalyst, so developed as to control, limit, and keep everything in "balance". :ray1:
    Democrats are not the "losers", no more than the GOP is the "winner", the American public is thee winner or loser depending on how the power is discharged, regulated at the voting booth and consumed. :beathead:
    Thank whoever it is that you thank, that our national elections are not conducted as are the school levies in WA State, (60% of registered voters to do what....) mmmmmmm, electoral college, what say....nah!
    Marketing you say. Yes. I agree. :thumb:
    I extend to "all", a few sides of this multi-facited jewel.....
    1) The ACLU receives and spends the same "currency" as you and I, upon which reads, in "God We Trust"....mmmmmm
    2) Our servicemembers' oath ends with "so help me God".......mmmmm
    3) When everyone, Olie North, Slick Willy and Tricky Dicky, to mention a few, their declarations before congress and the "G" word or any judicial body, all starts with, "so help me God"......mmmmmmmm
    Keeping in tune with history, it has been stated, "there has been more blood spilled for the sake of God than any other cause in the history of mankind"....!
    Marketing, ah yes, (sublininally), that state of mind we sometimes refer to as our conscience....... :ray1:
    Thank You all for voting, contributing "thee" most significant (considered by some, to be a "D" defiance) act in procecuting our "elect"rifying form of government. To all the one or two percent of you, see, you do make a differance, just listen to the other side. And in fairness, it appears our "conscience" is on the proverbial "elect"ric fence. :thumb:
    Now, to continue looking for the gate........see you in ten, twelve or eighteen months....or.... :confused: ???

    Remember to enjoy your freedoms, blood was shed to get them and continue to be shed to keep them. Living with this concept is our God given heritage, accepting it is apparent, getting used to it is something else. :beer2:

    All for One, One for All..... :eek: Whatta concept. :beathead:

    *from American Heritage Dictionary of the English Lanquage :ray1:

    (the preceding is all subliminal, that which may be inadequate to produce conscious awareness) ;)
  7. o mykiss

    o mykiss Active Member

    Tom Hawkins - you from Yoknapatawpha County, or what? 'Cause that was harder to follow than The Sound and the Fury. Just tell me whether you're with BR, Cactus et al. or against them so I can figure out how to decipher your post. ;)

    BR - guess it's all a matter of perspective. It's interesting that you think Michael Moore, Al Franken and Barbara Streisand are the face of the Democratic Party, because I certainly don't see it that way. Let me clue you in - they're entertainers, not politicians. And you guys have your own eccentric billionaires. Remember Richard Mellon Scaife? I could go into a tizzy about how insulting your stereotypes are, how misunderstood we Democrats are, and how you really need to get to know us 'cause we're not the nut jobs you make us out to be. But I won't. You may have a fair point - maybe the Demo party folks shouldn't be giving Michael Moore and his ilk positions of prominence at party events. (Then again, I doubt The Boss lost us many votes, certainly no more than Toby Keith did for the Repubs - but that's just because his music is so banal.) Maybe keeping people like Michael Moore off the dais would be effective. Then again, while the Repubs may have done a more effective job keeping their most infamous right wing nutcases offstage this time around, I am still tempted to think of the face of the Republican Party as Richard Vigueries, Bob Jones III, and even a few of those fellas you seem to be suggesting were drummed out of the Republican party. (Shees, didn't Alan Keyes just run for the Senate in Illinois as a Republican?) So it all is perspective.

    Since conservative demonization of Michael Moore and friends was apparently so effective at driving "mainstream" Americans to vote for Bush, maybe the Dems should have done a more effective job demonizing the more extreme elements of the religious right to try to drive a few more votes Kerry's way. But, it's a lot harder in this country to call a spade a spade when the spade is supposedly a "man of God". You have to admit though, that there is a religious extremist element to the Republican party that has to be no less frightening to a huge number of Americans than the liberal luminaries you like to demonize. (At least I hope you don't think that Bob Jones III's assertion that liberals hate Pres. Bush's Christ and that Bush's election represents God's reprieve from a descent into paganism represents mainstream American thought!) Even if you do not admit that there is a scary wing of the Republican party, I sure believe it to be so, and I think there is a reasonable chance that the Republican Party will kowtow too much to that element and we'll find ourselves reliving the dynamics of the early 90s that you described. I have to believe that conservative Christians are not as big a part of the voting population as many seem to think - I know this is only a rough proxy, but supposedly in the exit polls 22% identified "moral values" as their number one issue, of which something like 80% went for Bush. So we're talking less than 18% of the people who voted were conservative Christians (or Jews). For me, it will be painful to live through it if Republicans (with control of the White House, the House of Reps and the Senate) start giving this element most or everything that they want, but I am pretty confident that in the long run it will backfire on the Republican Party in a big way.
  8. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

    I wonder when we will actually "move on with life" here?
  9. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long

    O My Kiss - My post is about as clear as the DNC's platform, heh? Not to mention some of the posts on this site, and here I thought that would appeal to the liberal mindset, maybe, maybe not, my misconception, no aaapppology required, some 50m+ just voted for a platform of similar confusion......RBTL.
    So, I'm just content, here in Yoknapatawpha County, somewhere in the "blue" State of WA, for now anyway. Hows "our" man Rossi doin'......heh?
    Aint this great, all of us enjoying our freedoms, together, and in such blissful harmony? LOL.
    My post was a tongue in cheek "rambling" commenting on Kalm's post, whether I'm "with" someone, (BR or whomever) or not, isnt/wasnt the issue, it's poking fun at one little post.....just poking fun, you know, turn the other (conservativly speaking) cheek and all that.....
    Besides, it's my post, if you don't get it, dont get mad, just move on, it's obviously understandable.
    Like Patton told (in part) the Russian, "one sob toasting another sob, now I'll drink to that" :beer2:
    By the way, hows the fishin', wherever your are Mrs Kalabash?
  10. Zen Piscator

    Zen Piscator Supporting wild steelhead, gravel to gravel.

    Bob, we dont seem to be in any rush. Just waiting for the steelhead to die i guess. Serously, bush, go f*ck urself, get a clue asshole.

    Andy, do u i seem vulgur...maybe i have a reason to be
  11. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long

    These reversed "Ted Kennedy-esque" euphemisms are only precedent by your liberal virtuoso war chant. :beathead:
    and the beat goes on........
  12. Bright Rivers

    Bright Rivers Member

    Yes, I understand this. But apparently the folks at the DNC don't. And the entertainers certainly don't.

    Listen carefully. I don't think you're a nut job. But more importantly, I'm not the one making you out to be a nut job. Michael Moore, Al Franken and Barbara Streisand (and their ilk) -- they are doing a terrific job making you out to be a nut job.

    Now you've crossed the line! I never said one word about the Boss, and you gotta go play my boy Toby like that? Banal? Banal!?! Listen to this:

    Justice will be served and the battle will rage;
    This old dog will fight when you rattle his cage;
    And you'll be sorry that you messed with the US of A
    'cuz we'll put a boot in your ass
    It's the American way!

    Perhaps you meant "inspiring" or "provocative"? (I could even go with "corny", but "banal"?)

    If those guys are the face, I guess I'm the ass, because I don't even know who those guys are. (restrain yourself folks -- no cheapshots about me being an ass).

    If the Dems haven't been effective at demonizing the religious right, it certainly hasn't been for a lack of trying. From what I can tell, you all think think we'd live in Utopia if we could just get rid of all the Christians. Then we could finally be like Europe!

    You and the entire DNC. Go ahead and keep planning your campaign strategies around that philosophy. How has it worked so far?

    That's it for me. It's been fun, but Triggs is right -- I'm movin' on. Hopefully I'll see you nut jobs on the river. ;)
  13. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long

    to o my kiss -
    yep, I'm in the same arena as BR... :thumb:
    to BR -
    succinct in all points. :)
    Good day now, ya hear. ;)
    I have been tying flies while exchanging "ideas" with you folks. :beer2:
  14. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

    With articulate and astute political commentary such as this, I just can't understand how John Kerry lost! :confused:
  15. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

    How about some wild steelhead recipes?
  16. bugnuts

    bugnuts Member

    Same recipes as for hatchery fish...oh wait...that's a different thread. :rolleyes:
  17. Don Johnson

    Don Johnson Duke of Furl

    Reply to Bob and Bugnuts recipe posts.

    I have no recipes for wild steelhead but do like my hatchery fish stuffed with rosemary, thyme, garlic and butter then grilled but I must admit it's been a long time since I have had the opportunity to put one to the fire.
  18. Kalm

    Kalm Member

    Bright Rivers,

    I appreciate your analysis but would like to point out that Ralph Reed was the Director of the Southeast region for Bush 04. And where in the hell has Barbara Streisand been the last 10 years? You might be right on the mark though with Pelosi and I would like to add DNC chairman Terry McCauliffe to the list as well. Ultimately though, Kerry was the face of the party and it's that tremendously loooooonnng face that lost the election.

    You mention Patrick Buchanon who today sides with Noam Chomsky and Ralph Nader on the war in Iraq. And I heard Michael Savage (I gotta quit listening to these guys so much - although they are all that's on in Spokane) just the other day describe our current system of government as an oligarchy (although he left out the term "theocratic"). These are truly strange times, so I won't discredit what you've stated but I think things are vastly different now versus 10 years ago. Besides, you'd think a slovenly, unshaven, jeans and ball cap wearing made in the USA populist from the rust belt like Moore would play well in those red states.


    Upon further review of your previous posts, you're right, I was putting words in your mouth. In fact, you clearly recognized Hannity as being biased. My bad. Still, if you "seldom listen" to him, how can you have such a strong opinion of whether or not he is more credible than Michael Moore? I would expect you to reject Moore out of hand, just as most libs would reject Hannity and the like. I for one will listen to them all because I enjoy opinions and they are entertaining at what they do. Again, the right has done an effective job of marginalizing anyone who disagrees with them. And I would expect them to immediately turn their focus on Hillary.

    Many of your own arguments sound like they come straight from the playbook. I was almost waiting for you to desribe the democratic party as "unhinged" which I've heard a thousand times over the past year (and maybe it is) But if these are truly your own thoughts and are based on an objective assesement of Moore's materials and not simply what you've heard from biased sources, then I apologize for busting your chops so much.

    Tom Hawkins, I enjoyed your writing.

    Thanks for the spirited debate boys!
  19. ZugBug

    ZugBug Member

    The following appeared in the Columbus Dispatch on 11/16/04 written by Joe Blundo, a Dispatch columnist.

    Canada busy sending back Bush-dodgers.

    The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop the illegal immigration.

    The reelection of President Bush is prompting the exodus among left-leaning citizens who fear they'll soon be required to hunt, pray and agree with Bill O'Reilly.

    Canadian border farmers say it's not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, animal-rights activists and Unitarians crossing their fields at night.

    "I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn," said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota.

    The producer was cold, exhausted and hungry.

    "He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn't have any, he left. Didn't even get a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?"

    In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences, but the liberals scaled them. So he tried installing speakers that blare Rush Limbaugh across the fields.

    "Not real effective," he said. "The liberals still got through, and Rush annoyed the cows so much they wouldn't give milk."

    Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, drive them across the border and leave them to fend for themselves.

    "A lot of these people are not prepared for rugged conditions," an Ontario border patrolman said. "I found one carload without a drop of drinking water. They did have a nice little Napa Valley cabernet, though."

    When liberals are caught, they're sent back across the border, often wailing loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors have been circulating about the Bush administration establishing reeducation camps in which liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and watch NASCAR.

    In the days since the election, liberals have turned to sometimes-ingenious ways of crossing the border. Some have taken to posing as senior citizens on bus trips to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans disguised in powdered wigs, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior-citizen passengers.

    "If they can't identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, we get suspicious about their age," an official said.

    Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are creating and organic-broccoli shortage and renting all the good Susan Sarandon movies.

    "I feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can't support them," an Ottawa resident said. "How many art-history majors does one country need?"

    In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada, Vice President Dick Cheney met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged that the administration would take steps to reassure liberals, a source close to Cheney said.

    "We're going to have some Peter, Paul & Mary concerts. And we might put some endangered species on postage stamps. The president is determined to reach out."
  20. Monk

    Monk Redneck

    WooooooooWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe! :rofl: :thumb: