NFR 5 Deer Hunters Shot

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by coonrad, Nov 21, 2004.

  1. ChrisW

    ChrisW AKA Beadhead

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    Sorry Tom, "Bang-Pao" Sounded like SE Asian slander which I felt was irrelevant to the subject. Thats what I meant by "no need for us vs. them" Still not sure how this gets us to Minneapolis or pre-invasion planning but ok- 'nuff said.
     
  2. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

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    #1....after all these years and you still dont know how to spell my name correctly :confused: :beathead:
    #2...Im affraid a 22 is probably not even included in her arsenal ;)
     
  3. Curtis

    Curtis New Member

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    I heard a sixth died today. Anyone else hear the same? I heard it from someone just wondering if they were telling the truth.
     
  4. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Sorry Paddy.

    One of my best friends was an Owens. And I consider you one of my best friends as well. So that name will have to stick. You can call me Fishless since that's been it lately. bawling:

    I'm going to fly to Spokane one of these days and have you haul me to the Grande Rhonde for some lessons. I'll buy the burgers and fries and your drink of choice. Soy milk??? :rofl:

    Anyway Paddy, I am sorry to insult your mother about a lowly derringer. She's probably got something that could shave my face in a single burst and yet draw no blood. :beer2:

    Bob, the Two dudes from Spokane ride again! :eek:
     
  5. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long

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    I'd like to meet your Mom, just platonic of course, I've heard of 'em, just never met one......of her "caliber".....
    What's not normal about a family background like that, you'd think you were a Hatfield or a McCoy, hahahahahaha.....
    I LOL everytime I read yours/our post...That/she is priceless.......

    (OBTW, I'm married of 37 yrs, 2 kids in college, well adjusted.....except for my flyfishing fetish, I squeeze in some floG every once in a while, etc) :thumb: :beer2: :thumb:
     
  6. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long

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    .....mostly tongue in cheek.....my friend.....phonetic play on words.....
    The shooter is from the Twin Cities area......
    "Pre-invasion planning" was referring to the "hunters" (victims) not expecting that kind of outcome......obviously, hence they weren't "ready"....

    Hell, I have no idea where the guy is from, (roots) he might be from South Honolulu for all I know.....phunn-e you should ask......

    My wife is from that area in Wisc and we're familiar with the deer situation.....we visit back there quite often and "everyone" hunts, my bro-in-law lives just So of the area in the news.....awesome abundance of wildlife, deer, turkey, pheasant, etc., just awesome fly tying "vault" of goodies....some fishing, too.....

    Anyway..... :beer2:
     
  7. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long

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    Yep, reported by St Paul Pioneer Press......sad, sad, sad. bawling:

    Just heard from my S-I-L, one of the women killed was just recently engaged...
    then....
    they're having trouble figureing out how to do the funerals, the hunters were all "attached" some how, either as a relative or work or both....real tough, the whole frickin' (putting it mildly) region is just sick over this mess.....

    what gives.... :confused:
     
  8. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

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    Anytime my friend.


    Truth be told....she does carry a derringer in her "chewing gum pouch" inside her purse...beside the 38....then there's the 40 in her door panel. No joking either :ray1:




    Tom...no worries ;)
     
  9. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long

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    21st century Annie Oakley.....no joke....!
     
  10. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    Final response (kinda long)

    Monk, for some reason I believe you think I am attacking guns as the problem for the US high murder rate. I am not putting all the blame on guns. People kill people and Americans do alot of it.

    Allright we will use your numbers from above:

    from 1961-1990 there was a total of 15,198 homicides in Canada

    In the US during 1961-1990 there was 594,508 murders in the US.

    The numbers I used was from this site:http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm and I compared them to the FBI and Department of Justice results and found them to be the same. Now before you say that these numbers are wrong, think about it. Wouldn't it make sense for the FBI, the Department of Justice, and all asscociated police agencies to want to display the lowest amount of crime so that it looks like they are doing a good job?

    Here is a excerpt from an article on Bloomberg.com:

    "Sept. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Canada's homicide rate fell to a three-decade low last year, as fewer people were murdered in the entire country than in Chicago alone.

    Police recorded 548 murders, or 1.73 for every of 100,000 Canada's 31.6 million inhabitants, down from 582, or a rate of 1.86, in 2002, Statistics Canada said in Ottawa. Chicago, with a population of 2.87 million, had 598 murders in 2003, according to U.S. Department of Justice data.

    Canada's decline contrasts with murder trends in the U.S., where the number of reported homicides has risen for the past three years. The U.S. homicide rate was 5.69 in 2003, more than three times Canada's."Later in the article it states:

    "Canada's homicide rate was similar to those in France, the U.K. and Australia. Japan and Scotland have the world's lowest homicide rates, with 0.51 murders per 100,000 and 0.64 per 100,000 respectively."

    Here is the link for that article: http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000082&sid=aGEsdK7xB3M8&refer=canada

    Here is another excerpt that supports the same idea:

    In the latest National Crime Victimization Survey, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported that the U.S. murder rate for 2003 was about 5.6 per 100,000 persons, unchanged from 2001 and 2002. Of the victims of murder, approximately 49% were white and 49% were black. (DPIC note: While the report found that the race of victims is evenly split nationally, victims in death penalty cases are mostly white (about 81%)). In murder cases, 76% of the offenders were known to the victim, and 24% of offenders were strangers. Firearms were used in 71% of murders and homicides were mostly intraracial (victim and offender of same race). The most cited circumstance leading to murder was an argument (28%).

    Located at:http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167#STUDIES

    As for murders with guns here is a website that lists them:

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html

    It only gives it for every five years but it illustrates the point that guns make it too easy for people to kill one another.

    I don't see how anybody can refute this kind of evidence.
     
  11. davew

    davew Member

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    Troutfanatic,

    The sources you quote to support your conclusion that the greater prevalence of guns causes the higher murder rate in American society relative to other countries are guilty of selection bias. Specifically, they choose to compare the US to other countries with both lower murder and gun ownership rates. They choose to not include in their comparisons countries with higher gun ownership rates and lower murder rates.

    Several countries, including Switzerland and Israel, have much higher rates of gun ownership yet lower rates of gun related crime, including murder. A large majority of homes in Switzerland contain fully automatic weapons, because the military reserves store their personal weapons at home.

    When a wider range of countries is included in the analysis, the correlation between gun ownership and murder rates cannot be supported.

    We need to address the real issue here - all the evidence currently known to the public clearly shows that a guy with a history of violence that was trespassing on someone else's property gunned down six innocent people. Unless new evidence to the contrary becomes available, we should focus on punishing the individual who committed the crime and supporting the family and friends of the victims.
     
  12. Jerry Daschofsky

    Jerry Daschofsky Moderator Staff Member

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    Patrick, sounds like your Mom and my Grandma would've gotten along great. My Grandma was the same way (I even inherited some of her hunting rifles and guns after she passed). She got into hunting (then guns) somewhere in the 1940's. Before my Mom was born. She would go on hunting trips with my Grandpa, and would complain about having to stay up there at the camp with my then young uncle and just being the campcook. My Grandpa said "Fine, I'll teach you to hunt". Funny thing, my Grandma was a natural. She filled EVERY tag from that day on except two years (the year my Mom was born and the year my Aunt the youngest was born). And even then, I do believe she at least shot a deer or an elk, just not both. But know all the way up until she was told she couldn't hunt (was around 1986) she had filled every tag she drew. My Grandma though wasn't a "bigger is better" type though. She actually prefered to do most of her hunting with a .270. She only pulled the 06 out for elk hunting. But she would quarter and carry out her own game. Never let the men do it alone. She had a CWP and carried with her at all times too. People wonder why she was my favorite Grandma?? Funniest thing of all, all my pictures are of my Grandma looking like a "Grandma". She was just at home crocheting, baking, etc as she was shooting, gutting, and quartering big game. But she could use her guns. She wasn't up to date on the techns on all the new guns. But you put on in her hand, and she could outshoot anyone (including my Grandpa, who prided himself on his shooting ability).
     
  13. Monk

    Monk Redneck

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    "Canada's decline contrasts with murder trends in the U.S., where the number of reported homicides has risen for the past three years. The U.S. homicide rate was 5.69 in 2003, more than three times Canada's."Later in the article it states:"


    Population density. Where are the vast amount of murders carried out? Even on a per capita basis, they are in the cities. There are only a really 2 or 3 real "big cities" in canada.
     
  14. Mike Etgen

    Mike Etgen Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here

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    I need to start paying more attention... ;)

    Great discussion over an incredibly sad story. I've enjoyed reading the opinions you've all put out there and the varied perspectives shared when you get a group together that brings so many different experiences.
    I've never hunted and the only gun I own is one that my grandfather owned. It's a single shot .22 rifle and I own it more for sentimental reasons than any other. When I go fishing, I'm unarmed. So, I guess I probably don't "get" the fascination some folks have with guns, but I know my wife and son don't "get"' my fascination with flyrods, reels, feathers, etc. And I don't "get" my good friend's loyalty to the Yankees. Or Bob's dedication to the Seahawks. Or anyone's interest in hockey... :confused:

    That said, and my credibility either fully established or now further in question, I found that one or two points in particular made sense to me - one being Bob Lawless' suggestion that the gun lobby's insistence on NO restrictions of any kind, using that domino theory or slippery slope argument, is potentially the best argument the "anti-gunners" have. It's worth thinking about. Take an "all or nothing" position on something and you don't give your opposition much room to maneuver. And, what so many of you said about personal responsibility. For some reason, there's not near enough of that to go around these days...

    What I'm surprised not to see after so many posts, especially those that danced around the question about why there are so many gun deaths in this country, is someone stating the obvious - this is a violent culture and guns do a lot of the talking. Period. Part of the story of America is about our forefathers coming here and taking what they wanted because they wanted it and had the means to bring about cooperation and/or surrender. What makes America a global superpower today - THE global superpower - is not that we're more moral or smarter or because God favors us, but because we are in possession of both the means and the demonstrated willingness to use it to take what we need and/or defend what is ours. That's part of the national consciousness - you don't push America around. And if you don't think that doesn't trickle down to every last citizen who's got or covets a little piece of the rock, you're just not looking hard enough. Or maybe you need to watch more television...or go to a major athletic event. It's a miracle no one's been shot yet at an NBA arena or a college football staduim parking lot.

    Look at all the cliches and expressions that are part of our everyday language - most if not all with positive connotations. You all can think of many more...

    "...a real straight shooter"

    "...shoots from the hip."

    "Take no prisoners."

    "Shoot first and ask questions later."

    "I'm gunnin' for...(that girl, that promotion, that whatever")

    "I'm laying my gun on the table..."

    It is good? Bad? Needs to change? Our history is our history, and the culture is what it is, and there's a lot of decency and heroism and sacrifice and struggles by common people to have something worthwhile, and there's plenty to be proud of. We're the most generous people on the planet, near as I can tell.

    It's just hard to put the guns down and talk, when everyone's got a gun. And more and more in this country, everyone's got a gun, and everyone's willing to use it. It's a dilemma, isn't it? Think about the North Koreans, those poor bastards. The common citizens are starving but the leaders are developing nuclear weapons so THEY'VE got a gun. So...do you think there's any liklihood they'll listen to us when we try to talk them out of the nuclear brotherhood? After all, we've got the guns, too - and we've used them. And that makes them pretty nervous.

    Go ahead. Put your gun down first. I promise - I won't step in your yard or touch your kids or kick your dog or insult your wife. No, really, I insist...you first.

    That's the dilemma. Damned if I know the solution, but I respect the fact that we can at least talk about it in this country. And if we're talking...well, culture is a living thing, you know.
     
  15. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    Actually because of inhabitable parts of Canada they have the same population density as we do. Three examples to compare to: South Dakota, North Dakota, and Montana have the same density as their reflective provinces accross the border.

    Despite "population density" I doubt that is the reason why Americans are so good at killing each other. When the US averages a death rate 3.2 times the Canadian one I think its a little more than just being crowded together.
     
  16. Nooksack Mac

    Nooksack Mac Active Member

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    A few random thoughts:

    This kind of tragic outcome to a day of deer hunting in the local woods is incredibly rare. In about 50 years as a hunter and reader of outdoor magazines, I don't recall hearing of a similar incident - which is astonishing when we consider that deer hunting areas are often very crowded, especially around opening day, that deer often run out of sight before expiring, leading to honest (and dishonest) disagreements among armed strangers over who killed the deer. (It brings to mind Robert Heinlein's observation: An armed society is a polite society.)

    Second, the shooter is a Vietnamese immigrant and a military veteran. He may have, in his past, hunted and/or been hunted by armed enemies. As a foreigner, he may well have felt like a "stranger in a strange land," surrounded by armed and hostile strangers challenging him in a language that he may not understand well.

    Or it may turn out that he's just a malevolent, sociopathic poacher whose victims were entirely innocent. But as facts continue to emerge, this almost writes itself as an episode of "Law & Order."

    :confused:
     
  17. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    Look its not about the guns. It was never about the guns. I began with how violent Americans are IN GENERAL when compared to other developed nations. When you compare the United States of America to ANY other single developed country you will find that we have a much higher murder and crime rate. If you looked at the website (Second set of data) you would see that the methods of murder was broken down by percentage and guns just happened to be leading choice of weapon for murders.

    Thanks, you just proved my main point, Americans are more violent and cannot seem to control themselves even when compare to countries that have the same kind of killing opportunity or greater (even when they have fully automatic weapons).

    If you have ever lived in Europe, you would understand. Here in the US if someone really pisses a person off, often that person wants to fight them right then and there. Its alot of yelling and shoving and eventually at the bare minimum punches are thrown. At the most somebody or several somebodies are killed.

    In Europe the most you will see is Maybe some yelling and at the extreme a fistfight. Matterfact I have never even seen a fight in Europe except London.

    When I visited New York City I saw two robberies and three fights in ONE day.

    I have never seen violence to that extent in Paris, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, London, or Zurich.


    Yeah since that kind of thinking has been working SO WELL so far. New evidence is availble. We, as a country, are violent. We need to examine our own society.
     
  18. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    Obviously good ole Rob didn't ever visit the United States of America :rofl: where we have the biggest a$$holes, highest crime rate, and the most guns per person than any other country in the world.

    Troutfanatic
     
  19. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    Not true!

    Russia has a higher murder rate than the U.S. and Great Briton has a higher overall crime rate.

    As for a$$holes; well, I guess I don't know the same people as you do! :D
     
  20. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

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    When I lived in New York City I never experienced a crime personally and never saw one committed. And it was considered Crime Central USA.

    Well, except that Brooklyn Dodgers thing... :hmmm:

    I liked Mike Etgen's input here. America is a violent culture. If you took away all of the guns tomorrow it would not end. It might decrease a bit, but it would not end the violence. That is built into our culture.

    And that our country is a mixture of so many different peoples, from so many different lands, all attracted to the American Dream, which includes the old Colonial-Militia-Cowboy-Pioneer-thing, could actually set us up for more misunderstandings and violence. And it dosn't help us that people are breeding like flies and the national population has more than doubled since the end of World War II.

    When I was a kid it was a big deal to see blood portrayed on the movie screen. Now they explode the head off a guy after they wring his neck with their bare hands, and still it seems there's not enough. You can now go onto the internet and watch videos of the terrorists slowly cutting a person's head off with a steak knife. There was a time when, if a police officer was killed in the line of duty anywhere in America, it became a national incident, and everyone stopped to lower a flag and mourne our loss. Today they count them annually and hardly anyone notices. This is a serious loss of sensitivity to violence in our society.

    It's not just an American idea, this notion of blood sacrifice,revenge and violence. Some people are still living with an Old Testament paradigm, and that includes several millennia of bloodshed.

    So any ten year old today can sit at home and experience the entire gamut of human cruelty and pain in a matter of moments. I dont know what this does to the human psyche, but it can't be all good. For one thing I believe it is a form of psychological abuse, and conditioning to the option of violence as a solution to one's problems.

    On the one hand death and suffering are a fact of life in this world; everything lives at the expense or benefit of something else. It is unavoidable. But the deliberate use of extreme violence as a form of entertainment, with no appearant end in sight, seems to desensitize one to the realities of what they are viewing. Rape and violence are part of the entertainment script in many cultures nowadays. But I believe America, and the movie/video industry, really launched it on it's new and extreme way.

    Until we value peace, forgiveness and love- communication and understanding- at least as much as we value hate and revenge and blame, we don't stand a chance of improving life in America, or the world.

    Having or not having guns won't make a bit of difference. Nothing can stop a psychotic sociopath from deciding to use a weapon to hurt or kill someone, so laws don't regulate those people's behavior. The immediate, prevailing psychological social climate might be of more influence on such a person than any law or rule, or threat of consequence.

    The only real difference one can make is to look at themselves, their own attitudes and behavior and speech. That is where the real change begins.
     

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