NFR: 58,000 ballots missing in Florida

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by miyawaki, Oct 27, 2004.

  1. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

    ironic how this post started pertaining towards the ballots missing.....then all the bla bla bla about politics and people bashing begins. :beathead:

    Just remember there are other candidates running for the presidency
  2. mike doughty

    mike doughty Honorary Member

    This is why i don't like politics and certainly avoid talking about them. If there is one thing that will get people worked up it's this subject. :(
  3. creekx

    creekx spent spinner

    Bob, 60%+ of absentee voters are Republicans

    So, if you're looking for a conspiracy here, you've got it completely backwards.

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Just for clarification: I made no comment about absentee ballots-that was Leland.

    When I say the Supreme Court is Bush loaded, I don't mean that he appointed the court but rather that other Republicans did. It is definitely a Republican court. Do a little research here.

    Bob, the I love the occassional NFR post.
  5. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide

    Creekx, beware of how you interpret "statistics." That 60% you refer to may pertain to the average, nationwide. It may have little to do with the actual percentages in any particular county, such as Broward.

    "There are three kinds of lies, and in increasing order of perniciousness, they are: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

    Politicians of any and all persuasions are always gonna be liars and cheats, no matter what kind of polished media image they try to portray. After all, they are human beings. But I still vote for whichever of the two front-runners that I can determine has the most respect for Mother Earth and will do the least harm to the environment. It always seems to boil down to a two-ring circus with a clown in the center of each ring.

    Damn! Its drizzling here on the coast and I was hoping to mow lawns. Guess I'll just have to give up on that and go fishing!

  6. Bob Martin

    Bob Martin Member

    Would Bush be willing to sacrifice the lives of his own daughters for the cause of nation building in Iraq? I wonder.
    I believe that the war with Iraq will go down in history as one of the biggest blunders that our country has ever made in foreign policy.
  7. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

    Well Jim. I was going to go fishing this morning but where I was going to go.........Well I think those waters are Barren also bawling: so I think that I will just stay home and think about it. But it isn't raining here yet.

    Another Jim
  8. miyawaki

    miyawaki Active Member

    Unfortunately, we have begun a war with no end. We are spawning new insurgents and terrorist recruits every day. Our children and their children's children will never know a day of peace. Every President will be a wartime president. Sooner or later, in coming elections, we will be looking more at domestic policies while accepting that the war on terrorists is a given and is being conducted almost as a matter of course.

  9. sjterry

    sjterry Sr. Lurker


    I like this Mark Twain guy. I'm voting for him. I have to admit that I am a swing vote fool. I go back and forth on this more than Kerry and I'm as uneducated about the issues as Bush. :beathead:

    I appreciate the political forums on this site as long as the NFR is use, which is was here. My fly rod points to Kerry my gun points at Bush (not really at him but for him) I dislike the double speak and wish Lieberman or Gore was here to save us this time. When it comes right down to it I think both Kerry and Bush are out of touch, died in the wool Ivy League Blue Bloods with nothing better to do than (Like Brain from Pinky and the Brain) try and take over the world.

    Nobody has given me a good reason why healthcare is becoming unaffordable yet the doctors say they cant afford to practice. Nobody has actually articulated a plan to get us out of Iraq (probably because there isn't a good one), Nobody has given me a good reason why our tax code can't be gutted and rewritten (likely because neither wants to tax the hell out of the really big money people) and Nobody has convinced me that they would do a better job than what is being done now. I don't like either of them and wasting a vote on anyone else is a waste. So I join the ranks of the great undecided voter leaning left, against my nature a little, and read and watch. :confused:
  10. creekx

    creekx spent spinner

    Your use of the word "we" is very telling and at the same time disturbing. Take a deep breath.
  11. bugnuts

    bugnuts Member

    I must be reading your words wrong, Leland. As I recall, terrorists took the first shot in this "war" when they killed thousands in NYC. You can hate George Bush and his politics, and you can argue that invading Iraq and fighting terrorism have nothing to do with each other, but please don't suggest that the so-called "war on terror" would not be fought without the current administration's actions. :( John Kerry has had the luxury of being a "monday morning quarterback" throughout this entire campaign, and I still can't figure out where we'd be in fighting terrorism if he had been president.

    As for your opinion that this is a war in perpetuity, just remember that they said the same thing about the Cold War when everyone thought the world would end in nuclear holocaust. These cowards will undoubtedly perpetrate many acts of terrorism in my lifetime, but I'm going with the assumption that solid and steadfast leadership will keep my family safe.
  12. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    "Unless we drain the swamp of injustice in which the terrorist mosquitos breed, we'll never defeat the threat of terrorism." - Jim Wallis, Sojourners, to George W. Bush in the White House, February 1, 2002.

    It's one thing to interpret this as a call to spread democracy to Muslim nations. Perhaps there's a reason some countries don't already have democracy. Their cultural value system may be such that they simply may not be suitable hosts for the democratic process. A fundamental assumption of the democratic process is that the minority will accept the will of the majority when all are polled. In some countries, the minority resorts instead to violence and bloodshed, often religiously motivated. Look no further than the former Yugoslavia or Ireland to see this collision of cultural values.

    On the other hand, it just might be that the 'swamp of injustice' to which terrorists are reacting isn't the lack of democracy process, but rather their perception that America has historically manipulated other countries for its own ends, ignoring the will of its citizens. I would argue that our peculiarily parochial view of the world is a zero-sum game: for us to win, someone else must lose.

    Finally, consider Georges Santana's observation: "Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed forever to repeat them."

    Remember Viet Nam?

  13. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

    Sad stuff indeed , these political things. It's just a little worse than ever this time around. One thing I liked hearing recently: "There are no elections, only coronations".

    We Americans pride ourselves in our liberties. But really, we are just sheep. We take what is given us. And no matter who shows up, or from what party, the banks will always win. And they dont mind how loud we squeel either.

    They talk about the issues; health care, economy, jobs, retirement, social security,'s all bullshit. They write new laws every legislative session, safely from behind closed doors ; gun control, crime control, mandatory sentencing, financial disclosure requirements etc. But when it all shakes out, on the street, we see little change.

    Our politicians have become performers; carefully rehearsed speeches, profesionally written, are delivered with theatrical impunity during the so-called "Candidates Debates", which have become photo opportunities for our actor/candidates. They say what they believe we want to hear. The sad part is that we actually believe it. But if you listen closely, they never really answer the questions directly, specifically, with relevant closure. It's always a segway into a rehearsed speech. It reminds me of a vacume cleaner salesman who cant hear the word "No" at the door. Do we ever really know these people? I dont think so. They want us to know an "image", and that's what we vote for. When they finally appear human to us we are "disillusioned". But it was our illusion to begin with, we settled for it.

    No matter who wins this time, I am going to be a relentless environmentalist / pro wild fish ball-buster for the entire term in office; Presidents, Congressman, Senators, Governors, State Representatives, County Commissioners, Mayors(guess who!), etc. Why give them a break? It's going to take generations to clean up the mess America has become. We are now everything we had despised; overgoverned,devided, overtaxed, underrepresented, ignored, exploited, lied to.

    And every four years we get all excited and draw our battle lines over the "issues",( a never ending parade of shifting selectively favored social concerns), and we become even more devided and powerless in our anger and frustration. And no matter what happens; no matter which "hero" gets elected, no matter who loses, what laws are made or broken, "We The People" get screwed and the banks always win.

    We are only as free as they let us believe we are. You dont believe that? Step on the wrong politically powerful toes with your freedom of speech and watch what happens to you.

    One thing American politicians have forgotten, or maybe they just missed it since they had their noses up the asses of the banks and lawyers anyway:

    There are two kinds of politically dangerous people; the first kind is dangerous since he has everything and does not want to lose it, so he is willing to fight for what he has.This fellow can be pretty dangerous, but he's also kind of fat and unaccustomed to personal danger or really putting it on the line since he can afford to have others do it for him,(lawyers, cops, soldiers etc.).

    The second kind of dangerous person is the guy who no longer has anything, he has nothing to lose. He is personally resourceful, does it all himself, and he's used to being hungry. So he dosn't hold back in a fight- it's always to the death. That's what it's getting too now.

    How much longer can the American people play the game of election cycles and hero's promises and lies? The banks can go on indefinately. But I think we are coming to a place where we, the ordinary citizens, are seeing the "man behind the curtain",( no matter who he is or who his friends are), for what he really is- an actor on thin ice.
  14. andrew

    andrew Active Member

    Riding the fence but definitely ready to 'fall'

    I'm posting not to convince anyone else, but rather to just post and get closer to 500!

    Bush vs. Kerry...I'd like neither to win, however, who do you choose that lies least, and cares more?

    I don't blame Bush for his actions in the Middle East...if anything Clinton in my mind is partially to blame for the terrorist attack on 9/ll. He threw a 'log' more like a missle on the fire that was burning under Osama's ass. Vietnam cannot and should not be compared to the current Middle East situation. Vietnam was a cold war 'tit for tat' pissing game with Russia. It proved to be a stupid 'game'. However, Iraq...terrorism is not a stupid game! If anytime proved to be the best time for the U.S to be police of the world it is now. If the Middle East nut jobs want to plink each other off...that is fine, however, they brought the fight to us, and now it is our turn.

    In my opinion remember Pearl Harbor. We entered WW2 with less casualities than 9/11.
  15. clockwork

    clockwork New Member

    wow, nice writing Bob. really sums up what alot of us are thinking well.

    with this two party system, i dont think america will ever see greatness again. in reality they are far too close. same party really, just factions of two degrees. we laugh at the hopeless candidates in the back pages of the voters pamphlet from parties we've never heard of buyt in reality the best candidate probably resides among them. not bought and sold. and presumably with truly new ideas.-ryan
  16. Bob Martin

    Bob Martin Member

    I can put up with the sagging economy. I can be patient about our broken healthcare system and hope that congress can patch it up. I can even tolerate the taxes I pay now. But I can't forgive what this administration has done in Iraq.

    Because of 9/11 and other terrorist acts, we needed to do what we did against Al kaida in Afganistan. It was, and is, a noble effort. That's where we should have been concentrating our efforts all along.

    But Iraq! First off, Iraq was no more an eminent threat to our country than North Korea, probably less. Sure, Saddam was a despotic dictator but he was surely not the only one in the world. The war we began in Iraq sidetracked our efforts in Afganistan, and turned most of the world against us. Our young men and women are being put in harms way to try to carry out an extremely difficult nation building plan hatched up by the Bush administration.

    I ask you this: Is the removal of Saddam and the conflict in Iraq worth well over 1000 young American lives? Is it worth all the death and destruction, and chaos we've caused the Iraqi people? This administration has fanned the flames of Musilm extremism. Is it worth the confusion and polarization we now have in our own country? Would you be willing to put your own life or those of your loved ones at risk in Iraq for Bush's noble effort?

    We need a change at the helm folks. Be sure to vote!
  17. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

    USA consumers and business dependence on cheap oil got us into this mess. The big oil companies bought out our Gov't with the profits. Face it: We (USA consumers) gave Osama, Saddam, Ghadafi and those other crazies every damn penny they have. Every time you swipe your card at the gas station you give them more money for weapons and hate. Pay now or pay later, we need a renewable domestic energy source. There are things we can do besides bitch about our plight. Go buy a diesel car and run USA made biodisel. Americans have always fixed things from the ground up. Bob is correct, looking to politicians to solve all your problems is silly. The USA has always been about the people. Vote? Who cares. Do something that REALLY matters.

    If Bill Gates blew up the Trade Center, would you switch to Linux or Apple, or keep paying Microsoft because its "easier" even though Gates said he'd blow up more buildings with the money?

    The lazy American blame game has to end.
  18. miyawaki

    miyawaki Active Member

    " I must be reading your words wrong, Leland. As I recall, terrorists took the first shot in this "war" when they killed thousands in NYC. You can hate George Bush and his politics, and you can argue that invading Iraq and fighting terrorism have nothing to do with each other, but please don't suggest that the so-called "war on terror" would not be fought without the current administration's actions. John Kerry has had the luxury of being a "monday morning quarterback" throughout this entire campaign, and I still can't figure out where we'd be in fighting terrorism if he had been president."

    In the final analysis, it doesn't so much matter who fired the first shot, we are in Iraq and that is a fact. We are an occupying army and long after our kids come home we will be fighting this war. I'm saying that from now on, it goes without saying, that all our succeeding presidents, regardless of political affiliation, will be duty bound to continue this war and keep us safe from terrorism. We will be needing to look at what else our presidential candidates can offer besides protection and now is a good time to begin.

  19. Whitey

    Whitey Active Member

    here'a an idea, lets talk about the local peeps running for office and how it WILL effect the damn fishing, cus hay, this is "like" a fishing forum? Who supported the WSC and native steelhead? who didn't? somebody post that list!!!! Just some food for thought...

    And just because: The war on terrorists didn't start on 9/11. I seem to remember that in the early 90's, Osama bin dildo held a press conference announcing his war against the zionists(you and me). We just didn't take it seriously until it was too late.

    Bob Triggs is a freakin genius, great words dude!

    YT, I voted for nunya. :beer2:
  20. alpinetrout

    alpinetrout Banned or Parked

    I think South Park pretty much nailed it with their season premier last night. Your choices in any election are either a Giant Douche or a Turd Sandwich, because no one else will kiss ass enough to get that far in politics. Oh, and if you don't vote, P. Diddy will kill you.